ok, it's in the Daily Mail but ...

[themadhippy]

Aden, Nigerian Civil War, The Cold Wars, The Falklands, Gulf War 1, Lebanon, Bosnia, Desert Fox, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia and Syria

And how many of those were to defend the uk or dependancy instead of  playing with the big boys to make us look hard? We cant even be constant on whose an ally and whos a threat.

[guest311]

Let's be sensible about this, this is not going to happen anytime soon.

Challenger 2 is about to go through a major upgrade, also Warrior & CVR (T)'s are about to be replaced by Ajax and Boxer. It was looked at replacing Challenger with a heavy version of Ajax.

Look where we've come to with Aircraft, when I joined the RAF in 1983, we had at least 7 different types of fighter/bomber aircraft, now we have 2 types of multi role aircraft. I suspect that eventually they will be replaced by drones of some sort.

Cheers

Neal

sorry, but I refer you to Nimrod MR4.

billions spent, simulator built and training crews, first a/c in service, and suddenly stopped, built a/c scrapped with indecent haste, probably to prevent any reversal of the decision, and now a less effective a/c bought at increased cost from out of our country.

BUY BRITISH seems to have a nasty sound to it to our politicians, of ALL parties.

I remember watching the series on TV on 617 sdn training on the F-35s in the states, and the pilot who couldn't log into the a/c computer, so couldn't do anything.

just what you need when the hordes are heading your way.

one government after another has screwed our forces, and I doubt that they will change in the future, whatever colour they are.

I was proud to serve, as were my father and uncles, but would I do so now, seeing how they are 'valued' by our politicians, no chance.

I'm sure the rot set in when it became the norm that politicians had never had any military experience, just as they have no experience of health, finance, or any other department.

if, by some chance someone gets appointed to a position in a field they have experience of, and understand, and start to 'make waves' ie stand up for what is needed, as did the female defence minister [ex forces] a short while ago, they don't last long.

you only need to look at the fact that we can't even control our own coastline against illegal immigrants to despair of our being able to defend ourselves against a determined attacker.

what use are multi billion pound a/c carriers  and computerised multi roll a/c when we can't even afford to effectively deploy a few patrol boats.

[red_death]

I deleted a post I'd written as I don't want to get drawn into this but there is a certain level of inconsistency here - on the one hand you decry the possible loss of MBTs and on the other you complain that aircraft carriers and F35s have been procured. You can't have it both ways!

There's of course a major factor that is being missed here which is that replacement kit is becoming ever more advanced and ultimately expensive. The Vulcans that my dad served on cost £750k! Modern day equivalent £18.8m - that doesn't even get you a quarter of a eurofighter or f35.

PS MBTs aren't much use stopping desperate refugees in the channel and even if they were it would be a completely immoral use of armed forces - there are always choices to be made but mixing completely different topics doesn't help the discussion. We still spend more than any NATO member except the USA on defence. Whether that money is well spent is a different matter.

[Philip.]

Who exactly are we defending ourselves against? 

[Lawrence]

Calm down everyone - NGF is a refuge from the real world, so take the invective to Twitter please or we will lock this thread

NickR

Best delete the General Discussion thread then @Railwaygun 

[NeMo]

PS MBTs aren't much use stopping desperate refugees in the channel and even if they were it would be a completely immoral use of armed forces

I could not have phrased this better. Thank you.

If anyone thinks people fleeing a brutal civil war (where the very concept of innocent lives means less than nothing) are going to be alarmed by our highly trained professional navy, they're deluding themselves.

@class37025, the Nimrod MR4 is a particularly sorry story. But I reject your notion that the armed forces are screwed. Not a single person in the army, navy, or air force is a conscript. They are all there because they chose to be. They're doing a job, and just like me (a science teacher) sometimes we have to make do with the tools we're given. Why the Nimrod MR4 wasn't up to the job, I cannot say -- and I strongly suspect we'll never know until after the relevant documents are declassified. The cynic in me would assume pressure from the Americans to buy their aircraft and systems.

Cheers, NeMo

[guest8885]

the daily mail is in competition with others, for number odf words i think
but i confess to be a 5 days a week reader
i bow to my low number learned friend
my son is a chef and sergeant inthe raf
7 tours in falklands adn doesnt know why, but does not eat eggs when there?
was junior at gleneagles at least i could stay for £65 a night some times
no helicopter free trips, i did fly a tigermoth on my 60th
respect to all

[themadhippy]

The enemy of the working class travels by private jet, not migrant dinghy.

[scruff]

Who exactly are we defending ourselves against? 

Erm..

the Russians? currently conducting a fair few provocative actions aimed in our direction..

or the Chinese? currently embarking on several actions of expansionism..

Or the Argentinians? currently stepping up the rhetoric about reclaiming the Falkland islands to distract their populace from a failing economy..

plus several other countries supporting and aiding terrorism..

Hope that helps.

Cheers
Mark

[Snowwolflair]

I think the issue is utility and survive-ability. 

Utility in that there is little point in building kit that will just get stored unless a serious tank war breaks out, as it has no other peacetime role, and survive-ability where in almost all scenarios where you need MBTs they wont last the first 48 hours in a conflict, taken out by much lower cost weapon systems.  In short the anti tank man portable weaponry has far outpaced the tank armour technology.

After all the tank was the answer to the trench warfare and evolved to fight over vast areas of countryside, Kursk being their high point, but just as we no longer need battleships we really don't need MBTs.  They are no longer the best bang for your buck.

I smiled at the comment about modern politicians not having military experience.  It reminded me of the passage in Edward Heaths memoirs reflecting that in his cabinet every member had done military service with the exception of Margaret thatcher, although on reflection he thought she would have made an excellent tail gunner.

[Philip.]

Who exactly are we defending ourselves against? 

Erm..

the Russians? currently conducting a fair few provocative actions aimed in our direction..

or the Chinese? currently embarking on several actions of expansionism..

Or the Argentinians? currently stepping up the rhetoric about reclaiming the Falkland islands to distract their populace from a failing economy..

plus several other countries supporting and aiding terrorism..

Hope that helps.

Cheers
Mark

Erm...not really,but thanks for trying

[javlinfaw7]

In a recent Q&A session the  curator  of  the  Tank Museum said not to read to much in to this a upgrade package  had already been designed  for the Challenger and a company chosen to complete this and this unattributed  leak may just be a tactic  that has been used in the past to raise awareness.


https://youtu.be/8vDdOgG5CTc