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Author Topic: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?  (Read 809 times)

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Online njee20

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Re: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2020, 11:07:04 AM »
Lima in OO scale released a model of 50025 Invincible in Network SouthEast livery, the loco which derailed at West Ealing in 1989.
No other manufacturer has released another identical version

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/lima-oo-class-50025-invincible-254084127

Whilst spectacular it wasn't a fatal incident though. Heljan offered Western Talisman, which did come to grief in a very similar place, killing 10. Dapol haven't done it though, I'm not sure about Hornby/Farish/Lima 'back in the day'.

Having spoken to Hornby and several others about this I can give a somewhat objective reply.

If the engine still exists then there is copyright, and a manufacturer would pay so much to the owner of the copyright, if the owner is a trust or preserved railway, they can also specify how many can be produced for that sum.

If the engine doesn't exist, then the title to the number (or name) passes to the people that scrapped it, unless BR retained the number, (which they did in 99.9% of cases)

Graham

Sorry but that isn't true - if Hornby are telling people that then they are spreading fake news! You can't apply copyright from a full size loco to a model. 

What can be covered under IP laws are trademarks eg brand names/logos - for that you may need permission.  Most ex-BR stuff ended up with BRB Residual (though IIRC that has gone now), though some ended up elsewhere. Current franchises are normally relatively easy to deal with but franchises that are defunct can be difficult if the owner no longer wants to see the brand even in model form!

Feels like there may be some misinterpretation in terminology - if you're wanting to model a DB 66 you should (although I know there have been cases in court where a manufacturer has failed to stop production of an "unauthorised model") obtain permission from DB Schenker. If you choose a running number which they have sold that process is no different. Ie there is IP on the brand elements, but not the specific loco. So the process isn't different if the loco still exists, more if the operator/owner does.

Offline Ben A

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Re: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2020, 11:34:09 AM »

Hello all,

I am not a lawyer, but this is my understanding of the situation as this chestnut comes round from time to time.

TBH there are no definitive answers, in large part because British law is governed largely by precedent, so previous rulings by learned judges have as much influence as parliamentary statute.

There is case law in Europe that has come down on the side of the model manufacturer.

Most IP and trademark law is designed to prevent passing-off; that is, if I buy a locomotive, paint it red and then claim to be working for DB that would be actionable.

For clarity, if you are producing a model you are creating a 3D facsimile of a real thing in a reduced scale. It does not serve, or purport to serve, the same purpose as the original.

In this way, a model *could* be regarded as a 3D version of a photograph; if I photograph a DB train I can sell that photograph to a magazine with no need to pay DB anything; the same could hold if I produce a 3D facsimile.

Certainly, in the past Audi tried to take a diecast car manufacturer to court for using their four-rings icon on a model without permission and lost.

Having said that, Revolution always tries to get co-operation from the owners of the real thing not just because we are wary of the law, but for the more prosaic reason that it makes for a better model - usually the owners will have drawings and control access to the prototype; for example it was pointless trying to model the MOD flask wagons without the co-operation of DRS who allowed us to visit their site and measure/photograph the elusive prototype.

Cheers

Ben A.



Offline LASteve

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Re: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2020, 05:07:09 AM »
Well, @Ben A and everyone, I think we've got the answer. Truly appreciate the viewpoints and input. An idle thought last night and I learned a lot!

Online Bealman

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Re: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2020, 05:11:45 AM »
Next time my wife calls me an idle so and so, I'll tell her I'm not idle, I'm learning  ;D
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Offline PLD

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Re: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2020, 07:49:48 AM »
With Scotsman it was originally the service that was called the "Flying Scotsman" that gradually became associated with one engine which was the most regular on the run.
Not quite...
The simultaneous departures at 10:00 from London Kings Cross and the Edinburgh Waverley were officially titled the "Special Scotch Express" from 1862. The first reference to "Flying Scotsman" was the nickname of a regular Edinburgh driver on the service, which was later adopted by English crews for the Southbound leg of the "Special Scotch Express".
In MAY 1924 the LNER officially renamed the accelerated "Special Scotch Express" the "Flying Scotsman" and to publicise the service named the newly built loco 1472 "Flying Scotsman" in February 1924 and placed it on display at the  British Empire Exhibition at Wembley Park from April 1924 to October 1925, so the naming of the Loco predates the official naming of the service by 3 months, and (arguably) both are named after an infamous Scottish Driver...

Offline crewearpley40

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Re: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2020, 10:27:13 AM »
Steve @LASteve further to posts # 4 and 5 .... https://www.flickr.com/photos/15038/34145889230, was named the black countryman.  Here she is at warrington ....... https://youtu.be/hjjhuUah0Ds. If steve you need any info on D369 , 40169 please pm me
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 10:37:07 AM by crewearpley40 »

Offline Graham Walters

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Re: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2020, 06:13:58 PM »
With Scotsman it was originally the service that was called the "Flying Scotsman" that gradually became associated with one engine which was the most regular on the run.
Not quite...
The simultaneous departures at 10:00 from London Kings Cross and the Edinburgh Waverley were officially titled the "Special Scotch Express" from 1862. The first reference to "Flying Scotsman" was the nickname of a regular Edinburgh driver on the service, which was later adopted by English crews for the Southbound leg of the "Special Scotch Express".
In MAY 1924 the LNER officially renamed the accelerated "Special Scotch Express" the "Flying Scotsman" and to publicise the service named the newly built loco 1472 "Flying Scotsman" in February 1924 and placed it on display at the  British Empire Exhibition at Wembley Park from April 1924 to October 1925, so the naming of the Loco predates the official naming of the service by 3 months, and (arguably) both are named after an infamous Scottish Driver...

Well in that case the documenary I watched on YT produced by Pathe is wrong ! And there's Abraham Lincoln saying "everything on the internet is true"
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Offline Neil of Teesside

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Re: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2020, 07:42:19 PM »
D1 became a Class 44. The Class 40s started at D201.

Offline Neil of Teesside

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Re: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2020, 07:43:59 PM »
the 40's were named from 1-10 then a large gap. I'm not surprised, there are only so many "peaks" in England and you run out of them pretty quickly.


Unfortunately the Class 40s were not named after peaks, that was the Class 44. Some Class 40s were named after ocean liners.

Offline crewearpley40

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Re: How are the models numbers selected for manufacture?
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2020, 07:57:45 PM »
D200 BECAME 40122 . d201 to 321 became 40001 to 40121 , 323 to 399 became 40123 to 199

 

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