Hatton's Beyer-Garratt

[N_GaugeModeller]

Were did you hear that, they don't list any sound fitted option on their site let alone one only £29 more than the non sound version.

NGM

[Roy L S]

£228 for a sound fitted loco is not a bad price & it's a good spec, with the double chassis & all. That said I accept the comments that it really is too big for Thetford Rd, to look right our max is about 7-8 coaches. As for sound we now have 3 & you just can't put up with them all going round at once!!

Hi Richard

There has been no mention of a sound fitted one, just that it would be designed to fit sound. I think you may be getting mixed up with the Farish sound fitted 8F which will retail at somewhere around that price after discount.

There is no way in any case they could make sound viable for such a small mark up over the standard model (even allowing for cost of sound chip etc at wholesale prices).

Regards

Roy

[Dickydcc]

Hi all
Under Specifications & features it says dcc sound ready, does that not mean what it says? Then dcc fitted £228, what have I missed?
Rich

[Steven B]

I'm sure it was mentioned on RMWeb that DCC Sound ready means that it will be fitted with a speaker (or at least a hole to mount a speaker in). I'd be very suprised if it comes factory fitted with DCC sound for anything less than £100 more than the basic DC model.

Steven B.

[Bigmac]

Spoke to a very helpful chap on the Hattons Stand yesterday. I queried why no publicity for the Garratt and asked where it is at. the answer is that it is still at CAD stage and so far orders have been disappointing, it proceeding to tooling therefore appears far from a nailed on certainty currently. I queried the choice of model and apparently the reasoning in part at least was because their 00 model had been their best seller to date. According to this gentleman Hattons reckon N Gauge Market is 10-12% of 00, this is at odds with Bachmann and I do wonder (suspect) it reflects their experience currently without the Farish range to sell...

He did say that this lack of take up didn't necessarily mean their minds were closed to further models in N but the message seems clear, if you want an N Gauge Garratt then it doesn't seem like it will happen without more pre-orders.

Hattons have exactly the same problem DJM started to have - they've not yet delivered anything, so people don't know what to expect, so to pre-order feels a risk.

Moreover, the prototype is impressive, but not that common, so how widespread folk's desire of it is debatable. Furthermore, many who are willing and want a Garratt will have built the Skytrex kit (I fall into that category - I've built no less than 7 of them for myself and others over the years, and still have one to do).

For me therefore, I would struggle to justify pre-order, but would probably consider one once it turned up.

It's a shame that Hattons feel folk aren't interested - but I think they need to deliver something good quality first. Then trust will be established and they could build a N Gauge range. this is where I feel the whole pre-ordering thing is a minefield, as we've seen for different reasons with DJM.

Cheers,
Alan

Dr Al--taking the worst case assumption that hattons dont proceed--can you advise on the construction of the kits you have made.

cost of kit--skytrex -?
2 used farish chassis--crabs --?
any other parts.

and--a ball park estimate of time taken  to complete--including painting and decalling.

i have one on pre-order--nothing to lose..but not expecting one.

[red_death]

DCC Sound ready = designed to take a sound decoder and speaker (May even have a speaker fitted)
DCC fitted = DCC decoder (not sound) fitted

There's no way that Hattons are going to fit a sound decoder for £29 unless they've found a cheaper sound decoder manufacturer than Hornby's TTS range.

[Dr Al]

Dr Al--taking the worst case assumption that hattons dont proceed--can you advise on the construction of the kits you have made.

cost of kit--skytrex -?
2 used farish chassis--crabs --?
any other parts.

and--a ball park estimate of time taken  to complete--including painting and decalling.

i have one on pre-order--nothing to lose..but not expecting one.

To be honest, this isn't so easy nowadays, for the reasons below:

Cost: Skytrex kit (later re-issued by Lytchett Manor models) is not now available. The moulds were basically worn out, so the last produced were fairly rough. As such you're looking at the secondhand market for either a prebuilt one to strip and rebuild or an unbuilt kit. You'll probably be looking at 40 to 50 quid for an unbuilt kit now.

Chassis: needs 2 Farish black 5 (old Poole design)

Beyond that, it depends how far you want to go on detailing. You can do nothing more and just build out of the box, or you can add all the finesse of handrails, fine detail, etc. This will influence build time too - as well as experience. Well experienced modeller building this only out of the box could probably do a complete low melt solder build in a day (not painted).

Cheers,
Alan

[Bigmac]

Dr Al--taking the worst case assumption that hattons dont proceed--can you advise on the construction of the kits you have made.

cost of kit--skytrex -?
2 used farish chassis--crabs --?
any other parts.

and--a ball park estimate of time taken  to complete--including painting and decalling.

i have one on pre-order--nothing to lose..but not expecting one.

To be honest, this isn't so easy nowadays, for the reasons below:

Cost: Skytrex kit (later re-issued by Lytchett Manor models) is not now available. The moulds were basically worn out, so the last produced were fairly rough. As such you're looking at the secondhand market for either a prebuilt one to strip and rebuild or an unbuilt kit. You'll probably be looking at 40 to 50 quid for an unbuilt kit now.

Chassis: needs 2 Farish black 5 (old Poole design)

Beyond that, it depends how far you want to go on detailing. You can do nothing more and just build out of the box, or you can add all the finesse of handrails, fine detail, etc. This will influence build time too - as well as experience. Well experienced modeller building this only out of the box could probably do a complete low melt solder build in a day (not painted).

Cheers,
Alan

not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain.  i wonder if they will go ahead..?  or--me being the cynic--wonders if it was all a bit of a con trick.  if its still at the cad stage--how on earth could they manufacture it--presumably in china--and ship over here for the new year ?

[Bingley Hall]

not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain.  i wonder if they will go ahead..?  or--me being the cynic--wonders if it was all a bit of a con trick.  if its still at the cad stage--how on earth could they manufacture it--presumably in china--and ship over here for the new year ?

I've had one on pre-order from the beginning.

I'm big enough an ugly enough to know that

a) January 2020 was much too optimistic
b) It isn't a con
c) They definitely should be doing more publicity
d) There's a very good chance the Hattons person that told someone a few days ago it would still be January, is so far removed the project, they wouldn't even know what a Garratt was

I can wait.

[Dr Al]

not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain.

Original price is about right - I've built the kits for a lot less though with careful and lucky secondhand buys of both kit, prebuilt kit and chassis, or chassis/repairable non-runners. That way I've bought the components to build often for under £100 all in.

Cheers,
Alan

[njee20]

not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain.  i wonder if they will go ahead..?  or--me being the cynic--wonders if it was all a bit of a con trick.  if its still at the cad stage--how on earth could they manufacture it--presumably in china--and ship over here for the new year ?

Of course it's not a con, but it's never going to hit January 2020, and is clearly being neglected by Hatton's to an extent.

The underlying issue, and I feel like this is coming up loads at the moment (Cavalex, KR Models, Hatton's), is that these often slightly leftfield choices from 'new' manufacturers (that is not Bachmann/Dapol/Hornby) seem to sell themselves in OO gauge, whilst N guage needs a lot more nurturing. I suspect this is purely a symptom of a smaller market - you need (made up figures) 20% of N gauge modellers to buy versus 5% of OO gauge for equivalent sales.

It's easy to sit, as an N gauge modeller, and think "well they're not on here shouting about it, they're not promoting it, they could be doing more", but as a manufacturer if you launched a model in N and OO gauge, and the OO gauge one reached critical mass by itself why would you invest more time in what appears to be the less lucrative option (N gauge) unless you have a personal vested interest in N gauge? That, ultimately, is how Revolution came to being.

It is disappointing that Hatton's haven't got the confidence to push on with this at the moment, I've no interest in a Beyer Garratt, but I'd have their FEAs/RHTT and other things they've offered, and it's hard to image this will encourage them to try and shrink other models, even if they've made things a little harder for themselves with this model.

[Bigmac]

not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain.  i wonder if they will go ahead..?  or--me being the cynic--wonders if it was all a bit of a con trick.  if its still at the cad stage--how on earth could they manufacture it--presumably in china--and ship over here for the new year ?

I've had one on pre-order from the beginning.

I'm big enough an ugly enough to know that

a) January 2020 was much too optimistic
b) It isn't a con
c) They definitely should be doing more publicity
d) There's a very good chance the Hattons person that told someone a few days ago it would still be January, is so far removed the project, they wouldn't even know what a Garratt was

I can wait.

not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain.  i wonder if they will go ahead..?  or--me being the cynic--wonders if it was all a bit of a con trick.  if its still at the cad stage--how on earth could they manufacture it--presumably in china--and ship over here for the new year ?

Of course it's not a con, but it's never going to hit January 2020, and is clearly being neglected by Hatton's to an extent.

The underlying issue, and I feel like this is coming up loads at the moment (Cavalex, KR Models, Hatton's), is that these often slightly leftfield choices from 'new' manufacturers (that is not Bachmann/Dapol/Hornby) seem to sell themselves in OO gauge, whilst N guage needs a lot more nurturing. I suspect this is purely a symptom of a smaller market - you need (made up figures) 20% of N gauge modellers to buy versus 5% of OO gauge for equivalent sales.

It's easy to sit, as an N gauge modeller, and think "well they're not on here shouting about it, they're not promoting it, they could be doing more", but as a manufacturer if you launched a model in N and OO gauge, and the OO gauge one reached critical mass by itself why would you invest more time in what appears to be the less lucrative option (N gauge) unless you have a personal vested interest in N gauge? That, ultimately, is how Revolution came to being.

It is disappointing that Hatton's haven't got the confidence to push on with this at the moment, I've no interest in a Beyer Garratt, but I'd have their FEAs/RHTT and other things they've offered, and it's hard to image this will encourage them to try and shrink other models, even if they've made things a little harder for themselves with this model.

ok--so con was maybe not the best word to use--so lets try--testing the market.  and its worked--poor response from their market.  so who will take a bet on whether they proceed ?

[njee20]

Not really sure of your point though, of course they're testing the market, it would be a huge commercial risk to unilaterally decide to release something in a totally untested area.

The consistent theme among these models is that they always seem to be a bit weird. The Fell, GT3, Beyer Garatt etc. You'd think a wagon would be a lower-risk way to dip a toe into N gauge, although that didn't work for Cavalex either, so perhaps not.

[Bigmac]

not at all surprised--so it would appear that hattons original price of £200 is a bargain.

Original price is about right - I've built the kits for a lot less though with careful and lucky secondhand buys of both kit, prebuilt kit and chassis, or chassis/repairable non-runners. That way I've bought the components to build often for under £100 all in.

Cheers,
Alan

interesting.  so--lets say there was a steady supply of the body kits--but in good condition...and you fancied setting up a cottage industry making the completed models to order---painted numbered weathered--ready to go.--for £200--  how many units do you think would sell in a year ?

[Dr Al]

interesting.  so--lets say there was a steady supply of the body kits--but in good condition...and you fancied setting up a cottage industry making the completed models to order---painted numbered weathered--ready to go.--for £200--  how many units do you think would sell in a year ?

Of the ones I've built, I have two, and sold a few others on. How many more could be sold is completely debatable as those were all the ones I had at that time - i.e. there wasn't a 'steady supply' of base components for me to answer your question, and I wasn't aiming to do that even if there had been.

Recent ebay prices for kitbuilds have been low - £120-150, likely influenced by Hattons promise, so I expect them to rise again now that Hattons are cooling off, but building to sell at those prices is a fools errand as there's basically no money in it.

Moreover, pre-build kit it's not remotely comparable with Hattons - having a complete model ready to sell, that you can show off, demonstrate and photograph is much more likely to be sold than a pre-order for something which you don't actually know exactly what it will be like (i.e. vapour-ware).

Cheers,
Alan