Fish van train

[exmouthcraig]

Still unsure with brake van workings Mick but I tend to stick a bauxite one on the back of most things but I'm 59-63 SR.

I build it, dads meant to work out the technical side but even then I double check to make sure hes not just running rule 1

[AdrianC]

We're looking at Adrian! 

I thought I'd done something wrong and it had been deleted!!

Anyway, here's the link again.....

https://www.bloodandcustard.net/bluespot.html

[Steven B]

PS. To be clear, the reason isn't technical but operational: until 67/68, there wasn't an agreement between the BR board and the railway unions to operate trains without a guard at the back of the train. After that time there was, and the guard moved into the locomotive (and was eventually eliminated entirely). So brake vans were not needed.

The guard was only allowed in the rear cab of the diesel/electric - they required independent control of the brake. With the second man in the driver's cab there wouldn't have been space for the guard as well.

This means that steam hauled, and trains hauled by classes 14, 15, 16, 17 and 20 would all need a brake van unless running in multiple.

Steven B.

[NeMo]

The guard was only allowed in the rear cab of the diesel/electric - they required independent control of the brake. With the second man in the driver's cab there wouldn't have been space for the guard as well.

This means that steam hauled, and trains hauled by classes 14, 15, 16, 17 and 20 would all need a brake van unless running in multiple.

True, but I did say post-1968, so steam-hauled freight trains would be rather uncommon by then! And as for classes 14, 15 and 16, they'd be more or less gone; 17s not long after (and let's face it, they didn't do a lot of useful work anyway). So far as I know, by the 1970s, Class 20s were almost always operating in pairs.

So while your points are entirely valid, they don't exactly refute the general rule!

Cheers, NeMo

[maridunian]

Here are some preserved examples of the NE/BR(E) Fish Vans.

Haworth Station, Keighley & Worth Valley Railway (https://kwvr.co.uk)


Ludborough station, Lincolnshire Wolds Railway (https://lincolnshirewoldsrailway.co.uk/)


National Railway Museum, York (https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk)


The first and last of these confirm the wheelbase as 15', so that dimension of the Peco model is right, however these vans had a wheel in each corner, whereas the Peco 15' chassis is longer beyond the axles, so their fish van body was stretched to fit it.

I too remember one of these being towed from Milford Haven to Swansea by ?Class 101? DMUs. As the trains reversed at Carmarthen, the train had to run around the van before continuing.

Mike

[ScottishModeller]

Hi all,

Just remember there were several variations on the BR 'Blue Spot' fish vans.

For the 50's into the 70's you need a mixture of them to make the train look like the real thing.

Peco Fish Vans - Body was strectched to fit their standard long wheelbase chassis - think it's about 6mm.

If you want to make the slightly different types of BR Fish van - a good starting point is the Peco version.

You need to shorten it and change the strapping on the sides and then fit it on either an etched chassis or on a spare Dapol chassis.

One of my current projects is doing just this.

Thanks
Phil H

[maridunian]

If you want to make the slightly different types of BR Fish van - a good starting point is the Peco version.

You need to shorten it and change the strapping on the sides and then fit it on either an etched chassis or on a spare Dapol chassis.

I always thought that I might one day razor saw a painted one along the outer edges of the doorways, then vertically down the cut ends, level with the point the diagonal braces meet the floor, and that might do it. I never got around to this however before Dapol stepped in!

Mike

[ScottishModeller]

If you want to make the slightly different types of BR Fish van - a good starting point is the Peco version.

You need to shorten it and change the strapping on the sides and then fit it on either an etched chassis or on a spare Dapol chassis.

I always thought that I might one day razor saw a painted one along the outer edges of the doorways, then vertically down the cut ends, level with the point the diagonal braces meet the floor, and that might do it. I never got around to this however before Dapol stepped in!

Mike

Hi Mike,

You have described almost exactly what I am doing to them!

Glad to know there are other people who have the same ideas.

Thanks
Phil H

[Newportnobby]

Thanks again, All.
Yes - I run late steam/early diesel so a brake van will be used. (the only blue thing on my layout is a Blue Pullman). It's good to know all these things as my rule was ever "unfitted - grey and fitted - "bauxite".

[martyn]

I'm away from home and my books, but you could also use the old Farish model and if you can get them, the fox hunter kits or the 6 wheeled kit to fit the Society stove r chassis. The six wheeler was an LMS design.

As for an A4 hauling a fish train, I have a photo of an A4 piloted by a class 21 (NB loco type 2 bobo at Perth.

NPN, Mick: yes, brakevan needed for you. As has been said, the LNER fast fish from Aberdeen had a passenger BG or BCK for the guard, as the ride was considered too rough in a 4 wheeled goods brake.

Later: note that the BG or BCK was marshalled inside the train, and not at the end.

Martyn

[crewearpley40]

Maybe mick tad bit of weathering around chassis and buffers and lightly detail the van plus a bauxite brake van

[martyn]

Another version of a fish van is-or was-available from BH Enterprises to fit a Peco chassis.

Martyn'

Later

As per NeMo's post#4, the Blue Spot vans tended to be on regular diagrams on limited routes. They were also a BR development of an LNER design, but I don't know when the work for this was done, pre or post Nationalisation.

I did find some articles on their service, which I think I PMd to Exmouthcraig, but I only have limited search access at present.

However, as has been said, the Dapol model is of an actual van, whereas the Peco one is stretched to fit a standard chassis.

If you can find Foxhuneter kits, the same kit can build two variations of LNER
Van, one very similar but not the same as Blue Spot, and one the older sliding door type.

[PaulCheffus]

You need to shorten it and change the strapping on the sides and then fit it on either an etched chassis or on a spare Dapol chassis.

One of my current projects is doing just this.

Hi

It's a pity the Chivers kit isn't available as I used one of them to do the same using the 2mm SA chassis for the kit.

Cheers

Paul

[exmouthcraig]

As @martyn has said he pmd me this vast amount of knowledge and as it took him 2 attempts to send it too me and has not got info to hand I will share with everyone here and hopefully all useful information for everyone.

Back to your train. I have very little knowledge of the inner workings of the (G)WR and LSWR main lines. Judging from working from the Midlands and North East via the former Great Central, trains worked via Sheffield, Leicester, Banbury, and thence Swindon. I think passenger mainly then went via Bristol, but its feasible for traffic to go via Westbury; this may have been especially so for freight as it would avoid Bristol bottlenecks. If you do not want to do another Rule 1, l then I still suggest that a diversion off this route is a feasible answer; would it need reversing at Salisbury to get to Plymouth? i don't know the rail junction layouts in the Salisbury area. Judging from the piece you found about blue spot workings, it is feasible that this was one train which dropped wagons en route; again, in the absence of photos, WTT, or other written evidence, this is supposition on my part.

So what do you do?

Run as Rule 1.

Run it anyway as a diversion, and at least you have a feasible reason why it COULD have run, until you have proof that it did or didn't go via Salisbury EVER.

I wouldn't have thought that by the time it got to Plymouth that there were many wagons; hence my suggestion of about ten, which is probably a bit high, with 15 or so absolute max. Again, it MAY have been part of a fitted express with other wagons in the consist; this is where you need photos; and I would add other diagram LNER fish vans or possibly LMS, if possible.

Hope this has been some help, even though I have no definitive proof at all of any of this (except the workings via the GCR); but at least it gives a feasible excuse why it might have run via Salisbury, even if only once!

One good thing about van traffic-you can't tell on a model if they are loaded or empty, so it could be the returning empties going via Salisbury, especially if there was a Problem in the Exeter area.......

[geminijkr]

I have built several Foxhunter fish vans as they were more common before the 15' WB was introduced . The guards van on the Grimsby /London  was often not at the ned of the train but probably a dozen or more ahead, allegedly to improve the ride at high speed.
keith