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Author Topic: How important is loco haulage to you?  (Read 1704 times)

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Online njee20

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2019, 11:06:43 AM »
Can't say I have, I've got three 2+8 HSTs and haven't had any gear issues. They don't go up the gradient all that often, but romp up without issue when asked.

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2019, 11:18:29 AM »
chrism :

My Farish Fowler 4F isn't too good, their 3F Jinty will pull better despite being smaller and lighter. If I want to pull a long train, then  the Union Mills 3F or 2F Cauliflower come out - they'll pull every bit of stock I possess around the most tortuous route I can set without complaining at all.


sad that fact the Fowler 4F is not up to scratch, yet a Union Mills 3F or 2F Cauliflower  - are the mechanisms / tooling / engineering just much more quality, made to last , be capable ?

i have some older farish locos and a couple are resigned to shed scenes, yet my class 25 is oddly enough the best performer, compared to a class 24 i received one christmas ( now discontinued ) and it had numerous issues so sent it back
after complaints - now i have a class 25 ( number 2 ) which the company agreed i could swap for after complaints and subsequent investigations and im not technical minded

Offline NeMo

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2019, 11:21:08 AM »
Dapol 9F is hopeless for a heavy freight loco...
The problem is that the driving wheels are under the lightest part of the model. I've got two 9Fs, the weathered ones, and while they look gorgeous, they aren't especially strong (though mine will put a dozen or so wagons without problems) but they do sound very noisy by modern standards. Indeed, my Minitrix Britannia and Peco Jubilee are both much quieter and more pleasant to watch, even if they aren't such good models.

I've recently found that the gears on the Dapol HST may not be up to hauling a full length train up gradients . They seem to wear down very quickly. Has anyone else has this problem?
Rookie mistake. You need two power cars, one at each end -- just like the real thing! The dummy power car is just for show!

Cheers, Nemo
NGS Journal Editor

Online crewearpley40

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2019, 11:25:56 AM »
agree with you about the need for two hst power cars - both must have power to give greater capacity, haulage and work effectively in my opinion

Online njee20

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2019, 11:28:59 AM »
Works for the Revolution Pendolino, although I notice mine fighting each other slightly when starting off.

I personally find the Dapol HST has plenty of power as is, the bigger issue is the propensity of the mk3s to uncouple when pulled or derail when pushed!

Online Bealman

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2019, 11:34:05 AM »
A loco is no use whatsoever if it can't pull a reasonable load for its size. All of my diesels are adequate, both Dapol and Farish. Dapol 9F is hopeless for a heavy freight loco and the new Farish Castle is perculiar in that it is fine on the flat but not good enough on inclines. I've added weight to it and it is now just about usable. All my other steam outline are fine with special praise for the Dapol 28xx which pulls well on inclines so long as both traction tyres are in place.
I've recently found that the gears on the Dapol HST may not be up to hauling a full length train up gradients . They seem to wear down very quickly. Has anyone else has this problem?

It's a train set, for heaven's sake!

Gradients? If I was to build a new layout, it would be flat, and preferably without any points whatsoever.

I'd still have landscape going up and down around the level trackbed.

Haulage? In this scale?

Talk about getting upset about nuthin'

Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Online chrism

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2019, 11:35:38 AM »
Quote
My Farish Fowler 4F isn't too good, their 3F Jinty will pull better despite being smaller and lighter. If I want to pull a long train, then  the Union Mills 3F or 2F Cauliflower come out - they'll pull every bit of stock I possess around the most tortuous route I can set without complaining at all.

sad that fact the Fowler 4F is not up to scratch, yet a Union Mills 3F or 2F Cauliflower  - are the mechanisms / tooling / engineering just much more quality, made to last , be capable ?

They are just completely different beasts. The Farish 4F is a lightish plastic thing whereas the UM locos are heavy, both tender and loco, with a decent drive and traction tyres on the driven tender. I think the UM locos alone, even though they are the unpowered part, weigh more than the Farish 4F complete and the UM tenders probably weigh more than  the 4F too - which, along with the traction tyres, gives them very good adhesion.


Offline Webbo

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2019, 11:38:49 AM »
I must admit that prototypical haulage (within reason) has never been a factor for me when choosing a loco, mainly because I have always had smallish layouts and I don’t run completely prototypical trains.

I think this is crucial. Few people run realistic length trains. But then again, performance is measured in multiple ways. My ranking would be something like this:
  • Quietness: nothing is more off-putting than a loco that sounds like gravel chucked into a paper shredder.
  • Handle gaps in electrical contact well: locos should have an adequate span of electrical contacts that allows them to move slowly over insulated sections without stopping.
  • Sensitivity to slow speed running: it matters more to me how well the loco moves slowly (though not necessarily crawling) for semi-realistic shunting movements, rather than if it can hare around the track at 125 mph!
  • Gradients: even if the loco doesn't need to haul massive trains, it should be able to handle a reasonable load up a "train set" gradient without slipping.
  • Durability: I don't mean that the loco should have to survive a drop into the carpet (though that'd be nice) but rather than fundamental components have a realistic expectation to endure a reasonable period of use -- I'm kind of resigned to the fact Dapol lights last maybe a couple hours actual running before they die, having experienced that so often it's no longer a surprise when it happens.

Cheers, NeMo

You've just described the attributes of all Kato locomotives that I have had anything to do with. My 6-axle SD40s are each capable of pulling 30+ 50' box cars on level dirty track.

Webbo

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2019, 11:39:36 AM »
I am with George on this. I appreciate that there are people out there who have to have everything spot on and prototypical, but for me, if a loco' can pull 2 or 3 carriages, or a few wagons, that will do.


It's a train set, for heaven's sake!

David.
I used to be indecisive - now I'm not - I don't think.
If a friend seems distant, catch up with him.

Online dannyboy

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2019, 11:43:03 AM »
I seem to be in an agreeable mood this morning.  :). Webbo is correct, "You've just described the attributes of all Kato locomotives that I have had anything to do with", my sentiments eggsackerly!  :thumbsup:
David.
I used to be indecisive - now I'm not - I don't think.
If a friend seems distant, catch up with him.

Online Bealman

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2019, 11:45:39 AM »
Good morning to ya.  :thumbsup:

Not far off turning in here.  :beers:

(Once the Bachelor is finished, then I'll go home from the club)  ;D
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 11:49:54 AM by Bealman »
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Offline NeMo

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2019, 11:50:13 AM »
You've just described the attributes of all Kato locomotives that I have had anything to do with. My 6-axle SD40s are each capable of pulling 30+ 50' box cars on level dirty track.

Funnily enough, the one US loco I have is an old (1995) Kato SD45 bought secondhand for £50 at least fifteen years ago. It still works like a charm, slowly and silently picking up speed, negotiating points smoothly, and hauling anything I can stick behind it. At some point it lost its cab roof horns (which I really should replace!) but otherwise it's faultless.

It's the benchmark against which I compare all of my models. Some hold up well, the Farish 'Warship' for example seems similarly smooth and quiet, and is of course incrementally better detailed and DCC-ready. But I've yet to buy any Dapol diesel that either didn't require some sort of fettling or else experienced some sort of failure. I like Dapol models, I really do; they seem to 'nail' the look of many diesel classes really well, but they still don't compare to even 30-year-old Kato models when it comes to reliability or durability.

Cheers, NeMo
NGS Journal Editor

Online Bealman

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2019, 11:53:27 AM »
Yes sir!

The running qualities of Kato are legendary.

Kato is the benchmark.  :thumbsup:
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

Online njee20

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2019, 11:54:57 AM »
A loco is no use whatsoever if it can't pull a reasonable load for its size. All of my diesels are adequate, both Dapol and Farish. Dapol 9F is hopeless for a heavy freight loco and the new Farish Castle is perculiar in that it is fine on the flat but not good enough on inclines. I've added weight to it and it is now just about usable. All my other steam outline are fine with special praise for the Dapol 28xx which pulls well on inclines so long as both traction tyres are in place.
I've recently found that the gears on the Dapol HST may not be up to hauling a full length train up gradients . They seem to wear down very quickly. Has anyone else has this problem?

It's a train set, for heaven's sake!

Gradients? If I was to build a new layout, it would be flat, and preferably without any points whatsoever.

I'd still have landscape going up and down around the level trackbed.

Haulage? In this scale?

Talk about getting upset about nuthin'

How unnecessary. He's not upset, merely expressing an opinion. Why don't we just say "it's only toy trains", close the forum and go and do something else?

I am with George on this. I appreciate that there are people out there who have to have everything spot on and prototypical, but for me, if a loco' can pull 2 or 3 carriages, or a few wagons, that will do.

There's an enormous gulf between those two things. IRL a freight train may have 40 wagons. I want mine to manage 15-20. That's a good length for me. Having large locos that can only haul 2 wagons would be absolutely daft! Can you imagine all the large exhibition layouts with locos hauling 2 wagons!?

Online Dr Al

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Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2019, 12:09:41 PM »
I must admit that prototypical haulage (within reason) has never been a factor for me when choosing a loco, mainly because I have always had smallish layouts and I don’t run completely prototypical trains.

I think this is crucial. Few people run realistic length trains. But then again, performance is measured in multiple ways. My ranking would be something like this:
  • Quietness: nothing is more off-putting than a loco that sounds like gravel chucked into a paper shredder.
  • Handle gaps in electrical contact well: locos should have an adequate span of electrical contacts that allows them to move slowly over insulated sections without stopping.
  • Sensitivity to slow speed running: it matters more to me how well the loco moves slowly (though not necessarily crawling) for semi-realistic shunting movements, rather than if it can hare around the track at 125 mph!
  • Gradients: even if the loco doesn't need to haul massive trains, it should be able to handle a reasonable load up a "train set" gradient without slipping.
  • Durability: I don't mean that the loco should have to survive a drop into the carpet (though that'd be nice) but rather than fundamental components have a realistic expectation to endure a reasonable period of use -- I'm kind of resigned to the fact Dapol lights last maybe a couple hours actual running before they die, having experienced that so often it's no longer a surprise when it happens.

Cheers, NeMo

For me, NeMo's criteria are fairly close.

Ultimately, I need:
1. Pulling capacity for 10-12 free rolling coaches for expresses, 6-8 for medium trains and 4 for light suburbans, or an equivalent number of wagons, up to 100 4 wheelers for a Garratt, and 36 for a modern MGR Hopper train. Typical trains will be around 30. HSTs 8+2.
2. Slow speed - I totally agree with NeMo, that proper creep performance is vital. No stalling, no cogging, no inconsistency. It's why I've converted so many older Union Mills to Mashima power for example.
3. No wobbles. Apart from poor slow speed, there is nothing that destroys the scene more than a loco that wobbles along the track or going round curves. These are always fettled out or ultimately replaced.
4. Durability - totally agreed.

I have no concern for gradient performance as I refuse to ever consider using gradients - they just seem a minefield of potential trouble.

Cheers,
Alan
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 12:16:17 PM by Dr Al »
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

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