Iron Mink Vans.

[BoxTunnel]

Folks,

I couldn't find a Q&A subforum so I'm posting this here, please correct me if I'm out of order.

One of my recent purchases is a Dapol GWR "Iron Mink" van.  I've been googling "Mink vans" and found the following on Wikipedia:

"Early wagons were always open at the top, but from the 1860s covered vans were built in ever increasing numbers. These 'Mink' vans were initially constructed from wood, but between 1886 and 1902 iron was used instead and more than 4,000 such vehicles were built. Most were rated at 9 or 10 tons, but some 36 feet (11 m) bogie vans rated at 30 tons were also built in 1902 and 1911."

My questions are:

1)  Why "Mink"?  Where did this term come from as I see no resemblance to the furry little psychopath that terrorises indigenous wildlife but is quite useful in rich ladies' coat construction.

2)  Which bits were iron?  I would have thought a van made entirely from iron would be far heavier than 9, 10 or even 30 tons.  I'm guessing they are talking about he frame and possibly the roof?

Thank you in advance, and I did warn you all that I would be stress testing the "there is no such thing as a stupid question" theory!

Graham.

[daveg]

'Morning Graham

This doesn't really answer your interesting question but further down the Wiki page there's a listing of 'Telegraphic Codes'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_wagons#Telegraphic_codes

Perhaps someone with knowledge of railway history can provide info on how the series of names came about.

Dave G

[Newportnobby]

There is/are a few/many strange folks working on the railways who appear to enjoy giving wagons wildlife names. Here are just a few more:-
Shark
Mermaid
Dogfish
Catfish
Toad

[Bealman]

Interesting question, though, and a one I have pondered over the years. Don't lose sleep over it, mind!

Mink. 

[The Q]

IIRC
An Iron Mink Van has metal panels,
A Mink van has wooden panels held together with metal bracketing.

[Bealman]

Yes, I think you may be right.

Needs a GWR fan to confirm, I guess.

Still doesn't explain the mink bit, though 

[martyn]

I don't know the ultimate answer, but I think it was along the lines of a standard description for each class of vehicle referenced to a common diagram book; when sending telegraph descriptions of departing trains to a desitination, it was quicker to send '3 x minks' rather than 3x12 ton covered vans constructed of metal'. The recipient could quickly look up in the diagram book what vehicle was being referred to.

Most companies had similar code names for goods stock; think also Siphons, Imps (implement wagons), cordon, etc. I don't know where or how the original codes were thought up. Some codes seem to have crossed railway boundaries, as in pre- and post-grouping, if a vehicle was bound for  different company, the recipient again had to know what it was getting.

HTH, and apologies for any misinformation.

Martyn
,

[Bealman]

No need for apologies, Martyn!

Your explanation  is making sense.

An extremely interesting question  of history.

Well, to me, anyway. 

[zwilnik]

The iron mink was actually fully iron bodied. I think it made them more robust and secure than the older wooden ones and possibly cheaper to build when there was a shortage of wood (another thread somewhere mentioned changes in carriage design to metal also being partly due to the shortage of wood).

Here's a pic of one from Didcot..

[zwilnik]

Aha, found my link to the really handy Railway freight operations for modellers website, which details the body builds.. apparently iron was lighter and more robust, although harder to maintain.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock3.htm

[PLD]

Telegraphic names for wagon types such as "Mink", "Syphon" etc were unique to the GWR (except for BR engineers stock which all have aquatic names). They were simply an identification system and had no more direct connection to the intended traffic than "Castle", "Hall", "King" loco class names.

"9 ton", "10 ton", "30 ton" etc referred to the maximum load weight the wagon could carry rather than the weight of the wagon itself. Typically a 4 wheel 9/10ft wheelbase wagon weighed 4-6 tons when empty, a non-passenger bogie vehicle 24-28 tons.

The "Iron Mink was in fact of all metal construction (but actually steel alloy rather than iron). Metal bodied vehicles were actually lighter than the wooden equivalents, but only tended to be used for specialised traffics because:

• they were more complex and expensive to build.
• they were more prone to cosmetic damage (dents and rusting).
• they were more expensive to maintain and difficult to patch repair.

[martyn]

Paul;

whilst I agree that 'Mink' Siphon', etc was unique to the GWR, I was thinking also of other codes such as LNER 'Quint D' which would immediately identify a particular type of bogie bolster; also designations such as 'Longfit', 'Tube', 'Imp', 'Mac', 'Flat', 'Flatcase', 'Trestrol', etc ,etc, which were particular types of vehicles within the range of vehicles., and in many cases, had letters or numbers within the code to identify particular types within the generic description-eg 'Mac K'.

'Toad' was certainly used on the LNER as well.

Also, I'm sure that I have read that the  Iron Mink was effectively copied by other companies for gunpowder vans-LNER 'Powder J'? Ex NBR 'Powder D'? If not, they look very similar.

I think one reason for shortening the description to a standard type was the fact that train descriptions had to be forwarded by telegraph as opposed to telephone-it meant shorter, quicker messages could be sent.

[PLD]

Paul;

whilst I agree that 'Mink' Siphon', etc was unique to the GWR, I was thinking also of other codes such as LNER 'Quint D' which would immediately identify a particular type of bogie bolster; also designations such as 'Longfit', 'Tube', 'Imp', 'Mac', 'Flat', 'Flatcase', 'Trestrol', etc ,etc, which were particular types of vehicles within the range of vehicles., and in many cases, had letters or numbers within the code to identify particular types within the generic description-eg 'Mac K'.

'Toad' was certainly used on the LNER as well.

True, others did use short-names for wagons, but they tended to be descriptive of either the wagon of the intended load, unlike the almost meaningless/random GWR code names...

On the NER/LNER an "Imp" was an Implement Wagon, a "Mac" was a Machinery Wagon. (both most commonly used for farm machinery). the GWR equivalent of both of these was the "Loriot" (which is a European song-bird - not a common load worth having a special wagon for!!!)

Anywhere else a flat wagon was just that - a "Flat" (sometimes with a prefix or suffix if adapted for a specific type of load). On the GWR it was a "Beaver".

Also, I'm sure that I have read that the  Iron Mink was effectively copied by other companies for gunpowder vans-LNER 'Powder J'? Ex NBR 'Powder D'? If not, they look very similar.

The general outline of the all steel GPVs ("Cones" in GW speak) with inside framework and rounded corners to the body is generally reckoned to originate with the L&Y Diagram 60.

[BoxTunnel]

Thank you all for your excellent replies.

Not having an engineering background I never considered that metal panels would be lighter than wooden planks, but it seems obvious when I get into my car, which is definitely not made of wood!

Graham