Why Test Valley Models will not be using Paypal for transactions

Graham Walters · April 15, 2016, 02:55:26 PM

We have taken the decision today to stop taking payments through Paypal,we feel that as a business there are cheaper and better options that ofter the buyer and the seller the same if not better protection.

In our Paypal business account we had quite a sum of capital transferred to our Paypal account, this was witheld fro for 48hrs, until myself and my partner provided details or our identity, we had to prove we were who we said we were because of EU Money laundering regualtions.
That process started last Friday at 10pm, the funds were then pending in the business paypal account for a further 24hrs. Despite it being a CASH payment from one Paypal account to another.

I requested a withdrawal of funds, only to be met with a message that the transfer would take 72hrs, UK banking regualtions say bank transfers should complete in 24hrs, unfortunately PayPal are not a bank, and are not registered in the UK, they are simply a payment transaction gateway.

To compound matters as a business selling on E Bay, we have funds from items sold "pending" in our account, this is because Paypal allows buyers to tell them when they have recieved the goods, to me this is like shoplifting and promising to send the money when you get home. If the buyer doesn't pay, we have to wait 21 days for the money, Test Valley Models to not offer credit facilities to anyone...not even PayPal.

I already have one buyer who claims the loco he bought wasn't as described on EBay, does he really think I would have missed a soldering iron burn on the boiler casing when checking it and running it, does he really think that my partner would have missed that when giving it a value to buy it second hand, would we have considered keeping it as a collectors item with that mark on it!

For this reason only credit/debit cards will now be accepted on our site.
You can of course pay by BACS which is similar to Direct Debit, and something you have control over.

zwilnik · April 15, 2016, 03:03:55 PM

I think that's a sensible call. Thanks for the clarification of the receiving end of PayPal's "Pay on delivery" option too. The way it's pitched to the payer is that the seller is getting paid by PayPal as normal, you're just paying later. It's something that appears to have been set by default when PayPal added the feature too. I'l be changing my defaults just in case.

zwilnik · April 15, 2016, 03:40:41 PM

Quote from: Only Me on April 15, 2016, 03:28:44 PM
Graham, this may be interest to you then... www.zapp.co.uk ... Not yet live but worth a look.

Paul

The problem with that one is it's pretty much like PayPal. i.e. not a bank, just another system you have to sign up for to be able to give your details to for payment via your credit card. So there's still potential security issues for the users (i.e. one more database that can be hacked) and another barrier to dealing with issues for both sides.

There's rumours that vendors may be able to directly use Apple Pay online soon (apps already can). The advantage of systems like this is that they're transparent to the vendor (it's just a credit/debit card payment for them) and security for the user (no information is stored by Apple, it's just a way of signalling to your credit/debit card. Also vendors don't see any of the user's card information, so it reduces fraud).

Graham Walters · April 15, 2016, 04:57:41 PM

We will be looking at Evalon, they are payment processing service recommended by the bank, we can accept credit and debit cards through them.

Any future Ebay sales will be done through my own personal account that doesn't have these petty and expensive restrictions.

red_death · April 15, 2016, 05:32:02 PM

Hi Graham

If you are after a good (but cheap) online card payment processor then I can heartily recommend Stripe.com, but they are only useful for online payments.

Cheers, Mike

Graham Walters · April 15, 2016, 05:36:51 PM

Quote from: red_death on April 15, 2016, 05:32:02 PM
Hi Graham

If you are after a good (but cheap) online card payment processor then I can heartily recommend Stripe.com, but they are only useful for online payments.

Cheers, Mike

Paypal was the "known" alternative to paying through the shop payment system which is "Stripe"
Thanks for the heads up though

njee20 · April 15, 2016, 06:06:51 PM

Quotewe feel that as a business there are cheaper and better options that ofter the buyer and the seller the same if not better protection

Whilst I don't for a moment suspect you are out to screw consumers over I'm not sure that anything you are offering has any real sort of buyer protection, unlike PayPal. BACS is akin to posting cash through your letterbox. A credit card affords decent protection, but that's specific to your card issuer.

I personally don't care, and wholly understand why you'd not want to accept PayPal, but some people will want the protection it affords.

edwin_m · April 15, 2016, 06:28:17 PM

My personal view is that PayPal is seeking market domination. I don't have an account and any site that only accepts PayPal is unlikely to get my custom unless they offer something unavailable elsewhere. I'm aware they accept normal cards but after 10 or so transactions you have to sign up to an account.

Graham Walters · April 15, 2016, 06:36:31 PM

Quote from: njee20 on April 15, 2016, 06:06:51 PM
Quotewe feel that as a business there are cheaper and better options that ofter the buyer and the seller the same if not better protection

Whilst I don't for a moment suspect you are out to screw consumers over I'm not sure that anything you are offering has any real sort of buyer protection, unlike PayPal. BACS is akin to posting cash through your letterbox. A credit card affords decent protection, but that's specific to your card issuer.

I personally don't care, and wholly understand why you'd not want to accept PayPal, but some people will want the protection it affords.

Paypal may offer protection to the buyer, but at the sellers expense, at the moment they can put your payments in "pending" for 21 days. They are now asking peope to sign up to a buy now pay later scheme, which means buyers donat acutally pay anything for 14 days to do this they want unlimited access to your bank account, do you want to allow them that access ?
Also with this buy now pay later how long will it be before sellers have to wait 28days for payment?
We haven't had the shop open long, but only 5% of our sales in the shop have gone via payapl, the rest have been debit or credit card, that tells me more customers prefer not to use them when given the option.

njee20 · April 15, 2016, 06:39:41 PM

Yes, I realise all that, even said as much. You opened your post by saying you are offering alternatives that offer more protection for the buyer. I'm merely pointing out that you're not, quite the opposite. You're offering plenty of options, yes, but none have the level of protection of PayPal.

Again, I have no issue with that, I tend to use PP because it stores all my card details, but PP availability will in no way influence my purchases, merely an observation.

Frankly the exorbitant rates they charge is reason enough not to take PP frankly.

DELETED · April 25, 2016, 08:55:38 PM

Firstly I wish you success and best wishes

Secondly I know you're trying to attract business but remember it's your shop and I know you want it to be attractive but you should take payment wholly under your own terms. If you don't like paypal then that's that and you don't need to explain why not to take it. It took me a very long time to start using it but I don't like allot of it and still treat it with some hesitant respect. I know when they started this recent nonsense of pay on delivery I really check what the t's and c's are when I sell now. Also, I had a sale with funds witheld via ebay / paypal last year (a few hundred punds worth) and I had to call them saying if I couldn't get the payment for 21 days then there wasn't any shipment going to happen till then and that would look bad, thankfully it was an ebay / paypal glitch as it re-classified me as a "new user" despite my history and it was resolved there and then but I'm always cautious ever since.

...If you offer on-line payment, as long as it's secure and offer the usual tel-tale signs then that should be fine.

We have a paypal virtual terminal at work for card payments (usually in the £1,000's for card transactions), I can't believe the Paypal charge personally but I'm shocked at being charged more for regular debit card payments at counter terminals in local businesses these days. End of the day it's buyers choice.

All the best with the venture,

Rich

Jools · April 26, 2016, 10:05:47 PM

I'm a a long time paypal user as I've been on eBay since day dot, but I can understand why many small business don't want to use it -in addition the the fees taking the proverbial biscuit, even selling small value items privately the seller is the one taking all the risk -

Should the buyer claim its not as described the money can be immediately clawed back from you and you have to really fight to prove the description was accurate and it was the buyer who didn't read the damned text.

I'm also much more hesitant about using paypal as a consumer for big credit card purchases these days as I only recently realised that as you are paying an intermediary, and not the vendor, the law doesnt consider there to be a direct relationship between the debt and the goods and so the Section 75 protections provided by credit card purchases are voided!

These days I tend to only use paypal for eBay and purchases below £100 - which with the cost of our hobby these days, isnt much

NinOz · April 27, 2016, 02:21:17 AM

Quote from: edwin_m on April 15, 2016, 06:28:17 PM
My personal view is that PayPal is seeking market domination. I don't have an account and any site that only accepts PayPal is unlikely to get my custom unless they offer something unavailable elsewhere. I'm aware they accept normal cards but after 10 or so transactions you have to sign up to an account.

Interesting in that if PayPal is not available they will not get my money (credit card details) unless they are a well known or large business with a very good reputation. Even then I use a card with a very low limit.

Newportnobby · April 27, 2016, 09:59:21 AM

Quote from: Jools on April 26, 2016, 10:05:47 PM

I'm also much more hesitant about using paypal as a consumer for big credit card purchases these days as I only recently realised that as you are paying an intermediary, and not the vendor, the law doesn't consider there to be a direct relationship between the debt and the goods and so the Section 75 protections provided by credit card purchases are voided!

Thanks for that nugget, Jools. That'll make me think twice about the transaction value

red_death · April 27, 2016, 11:30:41 AM

Quote from: NinOz on April 27, 2016, 02:21:17 AM
Interesting in that if PayPal is not available they will not get my money (credit card details) unless they are a well known or large business with a very good reputation. Even then I use a card with a very low limit.

For most online transactions I'd be surprised if the vendor gets your card details anyway (I wouldn't want them!) but processes them through a 3rd party payment processor (who are much better equipped to look after security etc).

Cheers, Mike