Settle-Carlisle rolling stock - early 1980s

[davidinyork]

My long-term plan is a layout based on the Settle-Carlisle in the late 70s / early 80s. I've been gradually building up stock for a few years - I am have a growing assortment of Mk1s and Mk3as (will also get some Mk2s when the new ones appear), and locos either bought or on the wanted list are classes 08, 25, 31, 40, 45, 46, 47 (plus a Deltic - every layout needs one! It must be on a railtour...). Just bought the new Farish Cumbrian Mountain Express set, which is ideal for this time period and can be the sole steam loco!

However, as regards freight wagons of that era my knowledge is very patchy, so I would welcome some advice on this - I'm aiming for a couple of mixed freight rakes, so I guess a mixture of vans and open wagons of various types? what would have been a typical formation?

As regards buildings, I keep an eye on ebay for the Hornby Lyddle End East models, a number of which are of S&C structures.

I figure that if I have a definite shopping list I am more likely to buy stock which fits into my plans, rather than succumbing to locos which I like the look of (I seem to have a particular weakness for Class 67s!).

Thanks

[MJKERR]

I lived on the GSW and I made many trips to Carlisle, in the early to mid 1980s

The GSW stock was Polmadie based
This included one train each way, between Glasgow Central and Leeds
The Leeds stock was Neville Hill based
Later they all became Polmadie based
All rakes were Mark 1 SK and BSK

The standard formation for GSW was four SK and one BSK
The Leeds was six SK and one BSK, or a BSK at each end and five SK

However, towards the end of the 1980s reliability became an issue
Some GSW sets were reduced to three SK and one BSK, or even two SK and two BSK

There weren't any regular Inter City services
However, some weekends would see a diversion via Blackburn
Normal WCML sets were used, priority given to Glasgow - Euston, Scotland - Plymouth, and Scotland - Penzance services

Furthermore, there was virtually no freight (one of the reasons the route was prepared for closure), compared to what there is now
On each day I visited there would be one or two freight in each direction, usually company trains with a Class 37

Charters during the week typically used the Lakeland Pullman (see Electra Graphics), which had just been refurbished
At the weekend there would be at least one steam hauled service

Sadly I never saw a Class 40, 45, 46 or 55 on this route
Equally, I never saw a Class 25 or 31, but they may have been used

[davidinyork]

Thanks!

I've recently bought a book with lots of photos - 'The Settle & Carlisle Route Revisted' by TG Flinders. This was published in 1985 and most of the photos are from the early 1980s - the 'local' services mostly seem to be 45-hauled, with the WCML diversions using 47s, and the freight mostly 40s. I think the 31s came a bit later.

Are you sure about 37s? I've not noticed any photos of them in the book.

WCML rakes including Mk3s mostly seem to have been around 9 coaches, something like 5xMk3a TSO, MK3a RFB, 2xMk3a FO, Mk1 BG - with aircon Mk2s and Mk1 kitchen cars sometimes appearing in place of Mk3s. I might need to compromise on the length here as even in N gauge that is a pretty long train!

[MJKERR]

Time period would be about 1983 to 1989
Usually visited Carlisle once or twice a month during the period March to October, it was too cold the rest of the year

I used to visit the train crew office shortly after arrival to find out what freight was due for the whole day
There was almost always a Class 37 to / from Newcastle, but sometimes there would be one to / from Leeds

Typical InterCity rakes -
Euston :
6 x TSO - RFM - FO - FO - NHA (sometimes one additional FO)
Cross Country :
TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO - RBR - TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO

Other rakes would be seen, but very rare via Blackburn

[Sprintex]

I might need to compromise on the length here as even in N gauge that is a pretty long train!

A 2+8 HST is 5'+1/2" long:-



. . . so 9 MK3s and a 45 will be about 5'4" or 163cm


Paul

[davidinyork]

Time period would be about 1983 to 1989
Usually visited Carlisle once or twice a month during the period March to October, it was too cold the rest of the year

I used to visit the train crew office shortly after arrival to find out what freight was due for the whole day
There was almost always a Class 37 to / from Newcastle, but sometimes there would be one to / from Leeds

Typical InterCity rakes -
Euston :
6 x TSO - RFM - FO - FO - NHA (sometimes one additional FO)
Cross Country :
TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO - RBR - TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO

Other rakes would be seen, but very rare via Blackburn

What type of stock were the crosscountry rakes normally formed of?

[Matt1974]

I knew the line quite well during that time.
There are some photos here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/semmytrailer/sets/72157625625378472
I mostly remember mixed freights - usually class 25s and 40s.
I only remember class 45s on the Nottingham to Glasgow services that stopped around 83/84. Leeds to Carlisle were usually class 47s - but there were periods when class 25s were common in the early 80s and 31/4 were regular in the late 80s.
As for 47s there was quite a range and often they were from Scottish depots and I even saw NSE 47s in the late 80s.
Of course the green class 40 D200 was a regular on the Leeds to Carlisle in about 84 and I remember getting tired of it as I was still missing several class 47s.
I never saw a 37 on the S&C.

Matt

[davidinyork]

I knew the line quite well during that time.
There are some photos here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/semmytrailer/sets/72157625625378472
I mostly remember mixed freights - usually class 25s and 40s.
I only remember class 45s on the Nottingham to Glasgow services that stopped around 83/84. Leeds to Carlisle were usually class 47s - but there were periods when class 25s were common in the early 80s and 31/4 were regular in the late 80s.
As for 47s there was quite a range and often they were from Scottish depots and I even saw NSE 47s in the late 80s.
Of course the green class 40 D200 was a regular on the Leeds to Carlisle in about 84 and I remember getting tired of it as I was still missing several class 47s.
I never saw a 37 on the S&C.

Matt

Did the shove duffs ever put in an appearance? I need another 47 and 47701 in blue looks tempting...

[Matt1974]

I'm pretty sure the 47/7s never made the Leeds to Carlisle. Shame as I only saw 3 of those.

Matt

[MJKERR]

Cross Country :
TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO - RBR - TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO
What type of stock were the crosscountry rakes normally formed of?

Polmadie based Mark 2E TSO, 2D BFK, and 1 RBR

[davidinyork]

I'm pretty sure the 47/7s never made the Leeds to Carlisle. Shame as I only saw 3 of those.

Matt

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nodding_pig/8448719976/in/photolist-dSzU6N-pRQtNB-admoF5
This is all I've found, so it was probably very rare!

[Jonner]

Just had a glance through some Modern Railway Pictorial magazine's from around that time and came across a few images that maybe of use 47526(GD) SK,CK,BSK 10.00 Carlisle-Leeds.
31237 BSK,CK,CK,CK,BSOMK2a, 08.57 Leeds-Carlisle both dated 20/05/82.
31161(IM) same as above 17/05/82, CL31 SK,SK,SK,CK,BSK 16.25 Carlisle- Leeds 22/06/83
47483 BSO,TSO,TSOMk2c,TSO,TSO,TSOMk2c,TSO,BFKMk2c. 15.15 Glasgow-Nottingham 16/05/82 Apparently the last day of that service
before being diverted away from that route. The coaches on this formation not noted otherwise are Air conditioned but not sure if they are
d,e or f's. Other pics show Loco's and give service times but unable to make out the stock in detail
45119 16.36 Nottingham-Glasgow 8 MK1's 18/04/82.47111 10.00 Carlisle-Leeds Mk1's 8 Mk1's 19/05/82
47535 07.15 Nottingham-Glasgow 8 Mk1's 15/05/82 and finally an image of 55009 on Deltic Cumbrian Railtour 14/11/81 at Shipley comprising of unidentified Mk1 stock. As for freight vac fitted trains seem to be the norm,I also find plenty of useful info on Flickr.

[MJKERR]

I'm pretty sure the 47/7s never made the Leeds to Carlisle. Shame as I only saw 3 of those

Class 47/7 were Haymarket based at the time, and tended to use route via Newcastle and Liverpool in order to visit Crewe or Doncaster Works
Once transferred to Eastfield then routed via Carlisle and Preston
Equally, they used this same route when being transferred away

[MikeDunn]

There was almost always a Class 37 to / from Newcastle

Can't say I recall 37s from Newcastle to Carlisle about then?  Pacers, yes, but not 37s ...  Now, 31s & 47s were used when the Pacers crapped out, maybe you're thinking of those ?

[MJKERR]

Can't say I recall 37s from Newcastle to Carlisle about then?

Please refer to original post, the paragraph refers to freight services
Ironically, both routes often turned up Thornaby based Class 37s in the same day