Long-term viability of circuit-board fitted locos?

[railsquid]

Continued from :

Modern models with lights and DCC sockets are all well and good, but frankly I'd rather them without if they can't get the circuitry up to scratch. These are not complicated circuit boards, so it didn't ought to be beyond the wit of man. With models such as the 08 there's no circuitry and consequently much less to go wrong. Or there's the Kato system, where as I understand it the circuit board which comes in non-DCC locos is not much more than a collection of wires, and anyone wanting to fit DCC replaces this with a Kato decoder circuit board.

Having got back into the hobby very recently after a long hiatus, all this internal electronic wizardry was quite new to me. I hope to keep up this hobby for a few decades
with the trains I'm buying now - but  these circuit boards kind of worry me.
I think I could replace most parts but the circuit boards are custom jobs and how long will they be available for as spares?

Unfortunately my knowledge of electronics is very basic, but having looked at a few
of these boards, I'm pretty sure even if the board fails it can be by-passed easily
enough and the loco should still work. You'd lose the lights of course, but
from what I've seen it should be fairly straightforward to add your own LEDs.
You'd lose the DCC socket of course, though there's always the option of
hardwiring a chip or harness.

For me at least I don't see too much to worry about in the long term and I'm pretty confident thsat barring major failure of obscure parts I can keep my locos going.
I understand that's not everyone's cup of tea though (so look forward to a glut
of non-runners with failed boards ; ).

What is more worrying is the potential for boards to fail relatively early on in a loco's life (i.e. not long after any warranty has expired) - has anyone seen any statistics on
this kind of problem? I.e. has the introduction of this circuitry decreased reliability?

[DesertHound]

Good topic choice RailSquid. I've said it before (and each to their own I respectfully say) but the simplicity of the Poole Farish models is a joy to me.

Very sturdily constructed and once you've built up an armory of spares, you're pretty much set for the long haul. I do worry about gear availability, but I'm convinced the time isn't too far away whereby 3D printing will be able to take care if that.

Circuit boards seem quite expensive to me, should you need a spare one. I guess those more technically minded could fix them. Oh, the beauty with Poole a Farish is that many components are common across models. Makes building up a stock of spares much easier.

I'm guessing Kato work along the "KISS" principle too.

Sorry I can't contribute with info. about circuit boards.

Dan

[elmo]

I have a number of newer circuit board locos that have bits that dont work and in one case I have removed it altogether because a fault was stopping the loco from working.
I have many older simpler n gauge locos to last me a life time but as for anything new I have stopped buying them. A lot of money for poor quality crap.

Elmo

[DesertHound]

Pardon my ignorance guys, but what purpose does the PCB on these newer locos serve? I imagine it's todo with the lights and hooking up the DCC chip socket. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you wish to bypass these functions (i.e. not running DCC and find another way to power the lights), can you just bypass the PCB if it's faulty?

Not my area of competence, but just wondering how " integral" the PCB is to the design.

Cheers

Dan

[railsquid]

Good topic choice RailSquid. I've said it before (and each to their own I respectfully say) but the simplicity of the Poole Farish models is a joy to me.

Sucker for punishment that I am, I've now finally acquired a couple of Poole models (one with pre-split gears ). Dunno why but I've developed a fascination for N-gauge locomotive mechanisms and internals. Will report when they arrive and time becomes available.

Very sturdily constructed and once you've built up an armory of spares, you're pretty much set for the long haul. I do worry about gear availability, but I'm convinced the time isn't too far away whereby 3D printing will be able to take care if that.

The - admittedly indirect - impression I have of 3D printing is that it might not be suitable for gears and other operational parts as the plastics look either brittle or soft. But I could well be wrong, and/or materials and methods improve. Definitely something I'm interested in following.

[railsquid]

Pardon my ignorance guys, but what purpose does the PCB on these newer locos serve? I imagine it's todo with the lights and hooking up the DCC chip socket. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Basically that's it - typically there's one long PCB which takes power from the chassis, passes it through the DCC socket (either via chip or blanking plug to the motor) and to LEDs mounted at either end. Though sometimes, like in the current Farish 47, the LED circuit boards are separate (see here).

If you wish to bypass these functions (i.e. not running DCC and find another way to power the lights), can you just bypass the PCB if it's faulty?

It looks like the board can be bypassed easily enough, though the Farish boards look more complex and I haven't tried anything (yet). If the LEDs are mounted on the board I think you'd need to hack the board itself to get them to work.

[DesertHound]

Railsquid

Thanks for the heads up on the PCB's.

With regards the suitability of 3D printing and gears, I'd agree with you. People I know who have tried it say it's not feasible at present. I'm holding out that at some point it will be though - here's hoping!

Dan

[dodger]

Gentlemen, my sentiments exactly. The components on the PCB are quite common, but for me being surface mount devices are to small to change.  On bogied vehicles they connect the pick up on each bogie and these need to be bypassed if a faulty PCB is not replaced. The fault may not actually affect the running of the vehicle.

Most of the components are for the lights with a few for motor suppression.

If I suffer a PCB failure that stops the motor running then it will be bypassed. I thinking of bypassing the DCC blanking plug anyway. My 108 chassis is used in a kit and the lights are not necessary so that part of the PCB has been cut off. It happily runs through live frog peco points using just the motor bogie pickups.

Long live my fleet of Poole steam locos!

Dodger

[sparky]

I think the "it was better in the good old Poole days of bullet proof and fantastically reliable locos" is a bit of rose tinted glasses.....next you will all want steam powered locos....oops been there....just going to find a couple of sticks to start a fire with to cook some breakfast...much better than a new fangled gas cooker hob....much more reliable and easy to maintain....hopefully if it's nice weather I will get the old gramophone out...much better than that digital music box contraption....much more reliable.....

[DesertHound]

I think the "it was better in the good old Poole days of bullet proof and fantastically reliable locos" is a bit of rose tinted glasses.....next you will all want steam powered locos....oops been there....just going to find a couple of sticks to start a fire with to cook some breakfast...much better than a new fangled gas cooker hob....much more reliable and easy to maintain....hopefully if it's nice weather I will get the old gramophone out...much better than that digital music box contraption....much more reliable.....

I like the sense of humour there Sparky. While we're at it, I'll trade my Ford in for a 2-horse power horse and cart 

For me the discussion is not so much about comparing the older locos to the newer ones in terms of "what's better" (now that's such a wide discussion topic, and what constitutes "better" anyway), but rather approaching the discussion from the point of view of what's repairable by most of us, and what's too fiddly / requires a phD in electrical engineering to get it working again.

I agree that the newer locos are far superior in running quality (at least I think they are - I don't have that many) and so that side of the discussion for me is clear. For me, the hobby is about "tinkering", it's about dismantling / stripping locos completely, and then rebuilding them. Running quality is all relevant for what I'm interested in ... if I can increase the efficiency / ungunk a Poole Farish loco and get it running like a peach, then it's neither here nor there whether a Chinese model is still better, it's irrelevant to what gives me satisfaction from the hobby.

Availability of spares, I find, is still much better for the UK built models, since Bob has most things listed, and there's only a few items he has run out of (ok, more than a few, but he has most things). Coupled with that, I can buy some spares and they'll be good to use across the fleet, not specific to a class 33, or a class 40 etc. etc. Some spares are specific, but many are generic. That increases the durability of the hobby (fixing trains) for me.

I agree with your sentiments Sparky, and thanks again for the humour. I hope you can see my slant on it too though.

Now ... where did I put that typewriter? I wanted to post you a PM 

Dan

[sparky]

Hi Dan ...yes can definitely see the fun in tinkering with locos and I enjoy that too...new technology is a double edged sword..usually more reliable but as you say much more difficult for the layman to fix...the costs have been driven so low that we tend to throw away items too easily and replace rather than fix ourselves...

[DesertHound]

...the costs have been driven so low that we tend to throw away items too easily and replace rather than fix ourselves...

You've hit the nail on the head there Sparky. I guess it depends upon "why you're into the hobby" as to which view you take (Poole better than Chinese, and visa versa).

Dan

[DesertHound]

Sparky

There are some with far more spares than I have, but here's what I keep to keep my fleet going. Apart from a few extras I need, I've pretty much got what I need to keep my fleet running for as long as I own it.

Now, if my fleet was Chinese built, I'd need multiple of this lot, perhaps 20 x this lot. Simple reason being that each loco has it's own components with there being less "common components". After investing in Poole spares, I'm not going to switch.

I separate components into different categories, e.g. motive (armatures) / bogies and gears / bearings and shaft couplings / pick ups and springs / bogie towers / battery boxes and service pods etc. etc.

Where possible I separate new from old, but very rarely throw out components (unless it's a split gear or I really don't see how it could be fixed). Busted armatures are bagged and tagged so that I can revisit them later, potentially with a repair in mind.

I just cannot imagine having half the fun I do if I had the Chinese stuff. No offence to those that like the Chinese models (and the superior running quality and detailing) but it's just not my thing.

Enjoy the pics and sorry Squiddy, I've hijacked one of your threads (again!)

Dan

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[davidinyork]

I agree that the newer locos are far superior in running quality (at least I think they are - I don't have that many) and so that side of the discussion for me is clear. For me, the hobby is about "tinkering", it's about dismantling / stripping locos completely, and then rebuilding them. Running quality is all relevant for what I'm interested in ... if I can increase the efficiency / ungunk a Poole Farish loco and get it running like a peach, then it's neither here nor there whether a Chinese model is still better, it's irrelevant to what gives me satisfaction from the hobby.

The new ones are certainly a lot better than the early Farish ones, but some of the last ones they did pre-circuit boards are just as good, in my opinion, as the current ones. A few days ago I bought a Class 45 (I think the Peaks were the last new-tooling diesel bodies they did pre-circuit boards), and I'm really pleased with it - doesn't have working lights, but it's an excellent runner and with my recent experiences having no circuit board to go wrong is a bonus!

As regards removing circuit boards, I've not tried it but I doubt if it would be too difficult - should just be a case of running a wire from the pick-ups to the motor terminal on each side of the loco.

[dodger]

As regards removing circuit boards, I've not tried it but I doubt if it would be too difficult - should just be a case of running a wire from the pick-ups to the motor terminal on each side of the loco.

I only have a multiple units and they all use the same principle. As you suggest removing the PCB is not difficult if the lights are ignored. The trailer bogie pickup has a strip in the floor to solder the wires to and I believe the power bogie feeds the two motor block sides (from memory without striping it).

Dan

I echo your thoughts entirely.


Dodger