Frustration with Dapol and Farish Pre-orders

[Agrippa]

To sum up  a business exists to make money, that's self evident , otherwise investors
would put their money in government bonds etc. However without products which are
what the public wants they will suffer , eg British Leyland, Marks and Sparks etc.

With the relatively small market for UK N gauge and small number of producers the
customers have to bide their time as there is little they can do other than switch to US,
Jap and European models.

Annoying when a new model is announced and it takes ages before it's on sale , as ScottyStitch
points out the reason for the delay is irrelevant like a delayed flight or train journey,you just have to
put up with it.

[mokjumbo]

I wish that more of you had been in N in the early 70`s as I was.You wouldn`t be complaining about long lead times etc for your new locos `cos there basically were virtually no new locos to wait for!

[austinbob]

To be fair, I think the manufacturers could and would argue that they don't promise a time scale. They give a rough date when an item is expected........When they launch the product, there's no reason to believe that they are being deceitful about that date, but it certainly isn't a promise.

ScottyStitch
I'm not actually asking for a promise of delivery I am looking for a rough timescale if that's all they can give. The trouble is that even the 'rough timescales' often turn out to be hopelessly inaccurate. Now everyone knows that problems do occur with production schedules but don't you think it would be a good idea for the manufacturers to let people/retailers know there is a problem and give a revised date. When I spoke to Hattons, Dapol and Farish had given them no idea when advertised preorderable items would be available for most of the items.
There is also a problem, I think, when they announce a product and advertise it in their catalogues without any indication as to when the product will be available.
I quite often get junk mail through the post with catalogues for cars, furniture, just about anything. I cannot conceivably believe that most of those products would be advertised if they were not available (unless perhaps they had run out of stock).
I know this rant is not gonna change anything and its not a life threatening issue. But, as I said in my original post title this is a very frustrating issue.

[austinbob]

I wish that more of you had been in N in the early 70`s as I was.You wouldn`t be complaining about long lead times etc for your new locos `cos there basically were virtually no new locos to wait for!

That's not the issue though. The issue is that new products are announced but don't appear on the shelves anytime soon!

[acko22]

Gents,

I just want to try an clarify what I was trying to say earlier.

I agree with bob totally, while I agree that yes things timings slip for one of a million reasons may that be an issue with the CAD design all the way to the extreme where the cargo ship sheds it load all over the south cost.

While no manufactures do not promise it will be out at x date with out a doubt. They do give an approximate date and with a number of projects which have ran large amounts of time past that date, then of course people are going to ask questions and get annoyed.

There has been a numbers of projects that have ran over recently some by a little some by a lot, while the little amount is in no way an issue as I say timings slip some of these delays are counter productive to the community may that be right from the modeller who has been waiting for that model, the shop who have pre orders who in keeping with their price promise see little or o profit all the way to the maker who may loss orders as the modeller has got fed up waiting and gone with something else.

The question that I take from all this is;

Are the manufactures trying to spread the work done too thinly over too many projects and in need of scaling back to give more effort to the lesser number of projects ensuring the announcement to production and sale is kept to a minimum and the ability to absorb some of the issues is there?

[DELETED]

I like everyone else on here would be very happy to get my hands on the latest offering.  However, I agree entirely with the original post, I am quite frustrated the fact they announce expected delivery dates -yet they slip so very badly.

It is however such a reality with production times etc.  Folk will still order, if you don't like the terms then don't bother.  They're supplying the product to you, not you demanding it on a competitive market.

On the other hand, I do believe the likes of Farish and Dapol can do more to commit to delivery times, they should not announce something until they think they can deliver.

I have to say after many years of back-orders across a whole heap of things, paying up-front or committing payment details etc, then arguing afterwards on non or late delivery, I just don't order anything which is out of stock or pre-order these days unless it's an ABSOLUTE necessity, which almost nothing is.  It's certainly made my life allot easier, if I miss-out I miss-out, if it comes out a few £ dearer in 12 months time rather than commiting money I don't have now then so be it.  I have no CC's these days, only buy what you can afford now, don't wait on promises.  It's quite refreshing to live that way and the difference in reality is minimal apart from spending any time chasing orders and things which may never come.

[austinbob]

On the other hand, I do believe the likes of Farish and Dapol can do more to commit to delivery times, they should not announce something until they think they can deliver.

I have to say after many years of back-orders across a whole heap of things, paying up-front or committing payment details etc, then arguing afterwards on non or late delivery, I just don't order anything which is out of stock or pre-order these days unless it's an ABSOLUTE necessity, which almost nothing is.  It's certainly made my life allot easier, if I miss-out I miss-out, if it comes out a few £ dearer in 12 months time rather than commiting money I don't have now then so be it.  I have no CC's these days, only buy what you can afford now, don't wait on promises.  It's quite refreshing to live that way and the difference in reality is minimal apart from spending any time chasing orders and things which may never come.

That's a pretty good philosophy. Maybe I should cancel all my preorders and just buy what's available at the time I see something I need. (no - not need!! want?) - Don't think I could live without my Credit Card though - delays payment for a month or more and I always pay off in full each month - god I'm so virtuous!!

[MikeDunn]

I am looking for a rough timescale if that's all they can give. The trouble is that even the 'rough timescales' often turn out to be hopelessly inaccurate.

Er - no.

Their estimate, based on that their suppliers say & them adding a 'fudge factor' is accurate within an order of magnitude ...  It's just that people are not, in this day & age, willing to wait more than a few months for something that can take a few years (or longer, in the case of awkward products) to sort out ... ...

Nothing stops any of the complainers getting hold of the plans etc, grabbing a 3D program, and doing their own ... ...

On the other hand, I do believe the likes of Farish and Dapol can do more to commit to delivery times, they should not announce something until they think they can deliver.

And that stops several companies getting a fair way down the path, spending lots of money for little return, in what way ?

I buy when the need demands me ... (or SWMBO    She's now decided she wants a Class 91 set in GNER OO scale ... right when no-one has it  ) ... Do I (or SWMBO  miss out sometimes ?  Yes.  Do I pay more than I should have sometimes ?  Yes.  Do I get a bargain sometimes ?  Yes.

It's just a toy, guys ...  The oil price won't collapse because Dapol didn't deliver your desired toy this week, but instead have a 6 month delay ...  The stock market won't crash & burn because Bachmann's parent company decided to run a 250,000-item run that pays them a lot more profit this month, and pushed a GraFar loco back 3 months ...

No, you don't get your instant gratification ... but it's just a toy ...

I have no CC's these days, only buy what you can afford now, don't wait on promises. 

You do realise that doing this impacts your credit rating, which underpins many things ?  I don't agree with them myself, but hold a couple just so that the rating stays healthy ...

[austinbob]

You do realise that doing this impacts your credit rating, which underpins many things ?  I don't agree with them myself, but hold a couple just so that the rating stays healthy ...

Well that came from nowhere Mike. Yes I'm aware that could be an issue but I have had multiple credit cards in the past, mortgages, loans etc. and my credit rating is immaculate. Oh and if you have multiple credit cards and can't pay them off that has an effect on your credit rating as well I believe!!

[ScottyStitch]

I have pre-ordered a few things, and not paid a penny until it has shipped, so how does that tie up my capital.?

[austinbob]

I have pre-ordered a few things, and not paid a penny until it has shipped, so how does that tie up my capital.?

Yes - for me that's right ScottyStitch. I have only ever preordered from Hattons and they always give you the opportunity to back out before they ship. (not that I've ever got to that stage with any preorders!! hence the origin of this post!). So for me that's not so much of an issue. I just want to be kept informed about when I'm gonna get my new toys please.

[Portpatrick]

Agrippa actually validates the subtly nuanced point Drucker was making some 60 yrs ago.  If you do not meet the expectations of your customers, profits start to fall (M&S) and the business, in extremis, may fail (BL).  You identify and evaluate your market, and how you can service it, first.  That is what produces the profits which a business needs to survive and maybe grow.  Customers are needed before you make profits.

He also draw attention to the fact that given the UK N Gauge market is small, we do not have the discipline of strong competition. We have a near duopoly.  That puts and even greater obligation on manufacturers to act responsibly, treat their customers with proper courtesy and respect.  And that includes producing quality products (OK not a problem for me but seems to be for at least some).  Also if you publish timescales, then that same courtesy demands you report back on them.

If, like me, we want to carry on with UK modelling and not change to European, American etc, or revert to OO, we have virtually no choice but to continue to buy what comes out when it comes out.  But it does not follow from that we should blindly accept all that is thrown at us without challenge.  Any more than we blindly accept train/plane delays without putting in for any compensation to which we are entitled or complaining when such delays are normal occurrence (The Thameslink route for example)

The fact that I may not be able to change anything, and may buy anyway - though I have once cancelled an order and changed plans - is not relevant.  As the customers we have the right to know simply because we are customers,  the manufacturer's life blood, and should be treated as such; with basic courtesy.  If they have placed plans and dates in the public domain, such information is no longer commercial in confidence.  So tell us and if we are given a simple reason, such as the quality of the first delivery of A2s was poor, or the ship sunk, then while we may well moan a bit, I suspect most of us will trust manufacturers far more.

While there may be risks of  developing a culture of complaining, at least the balance between customers and suppliers has become less one sided, in recent years.

[Portpatrick]

I have pre-ordered a few things, and not paid a penny until it has shipped, so how does that tie up my capital.?

Yes - for me that's right ScottyStitch. I have only ever preordered from Hattons and they always give you the opportunity to back out before they ship. (not that I've ever got to that stage with any preorders!! hence the origin of this post!). So for me that's not so much of an issue. I just want to be kept informed about when I'm gonna get my new toys please.

Indeed Bob.  And the A2, for which we now know a good reason for the delay, albeit not from Farish themselves,  is my only outstanding pre order.  Hattons have delivered on the rest.   Your wish is totally reasonable.

[DELETED]

That's a pretty good philosophy. Maybe I should cancel all my preorders and just buy what's available at the time I see something I need. (no - not need!! want?) - Don't think I could live without my Credit Card though - delays payment for a month or more and I always pay off in full each month - god I'm so virtuous!!

...well I'm only without cc's while I'm out of work.  But the whole concept of them personally is BUNK.  If you can't afford, you don't buy.  If you can afford to buy then you don't need the card.

You do realise that doing this impacts your credit rating, which underpins many things ?  I don't agree with them myself, but hold a couple just so that the rating stays healthy ...

...yes thanks, plan is in hand and no impact, but I believe 100% that a CC is useless if you pay it off every day.  Just buy what you can afford e.g. no more headaches.

[ASFC]

I have two lines of thought on this subject.

1. I cannot remember the last time that a catalogue by BachFar had predicted dates in-when I worked in the trade updates came by way of the rep and the collectors club mag. Even then they would only predict a date normally once it was in the factory or on the slow boat. Dapol on the other hand had Dave Jones interacting alot on the internet-fair play to him, and this would lead to a slow drip of information. Perhaps Dapols now comparative silence is unsettling??

2. This is a hobby, I am happy to wait. If everything came all at once it would be extremely boring, and I would be incredibly short of cash (!). As far as I am concerned a catalogue is merely a 'this is what we offer for purchase/intend to offer for purchase' and if a retailer chooses to take pre-orders then that is their choice. Given that we don't need any of these products this is the way the industry will work. I have just tied up capital in a Pendolino and given that I can't hope to make one I will happily wait for the fateful day that the Postie comes to the door with it whether that is March next year or March the following year-as long as it is delivered and it is a quality model. In the meantime I will enjoy what I have and purchase models to fill other gaps in my collection.

No doubt some competition would cause the somewhat sleepy way the industry works to change-if so great, if not I will carry on enjoying the hobby regardless. My job drives me up the wall enough to let my hobbies go in the same direction.