Why do we use 4ft 8.5 inch gauge track?

[austinbob]

I found this interesting missive on standard rail gauge on the internet. First part attributable to Professor Tom O'Hare, University of Texas at Austin. - Its obviously of US origin but doesn't detract too much from the British history. Don't know if all this is exactly true but it sounds credible.

Quote....

"The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and the US railroads were built by English expatriates.

Why did the English people build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.

Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.

Okay! Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.

So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe were built by Imperial Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been used ever since.

And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were first made by Roman war chariots. Since the chariots were made for, or by, Imperial Rome they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.

Thus, we have the answer to the original question. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman army war chariot. Specs and Bureaucracies live forever."

... and it gets better

(unknown origin)

"So, the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's 'backside' (original word  ) came up with it, you may be exactly right. Because the Imperial Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.

Now the twist to the story. . . .

There's an interesting extension of the story about railroad gauge and horses' behinds. When we see a Space Shuttle sitting on the launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are the solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at a factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs might have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line to the factory runs through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than a railroad track, and the railroad track is about as wide as two horses' behinds.

So a major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined by the width of a horse's backside (original word  )!"

[Komata]

Essentially the article is correct.  Loved the 'booster' twist.  Who would have thought?

Thanks.

[ScottyStitch]

I found this interesting missive on standard rail gauge on the internet. First part attributable to Professor Tom O'Hare, University of Texas at Austin. - Its obviously of US origin but doesn't detract too much from the British history. Don't know if all this is exactly true but it sounds credible.

Quote....

"The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and the US railroads were built by English expatriates.

Why did the English people build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.

Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.

Okay! Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.

So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe were built by Imperial Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been used ever since.

And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were first made by Roman war chariots. Since the chariots were made for, or by, Imperial Rome they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.

Thus, we have the answer to the original question. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman army war chariot. Specs and Bureaucracies live forever."

... and it gets better

(unknown origin)

"So, the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's 'backside' (original word  ) came up with it, you may be exactly right. Because the Imperial Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.

Now the twist to the story. . . .

There's an interesting extension of the story about railroad gauge and horses' behinds. When we see a Space Shuttle sitting on the launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are the solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at a factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs might have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line to the factory runs through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than a railroad track, and the railroad track is about as wide as two horses' behinds.

So a major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined by the width of a horse's backside (original word  )!"

Seems very plausible. If it's not true, it should be!

[NeMo]

It's a good story. But not necessarily true. Do have a read of Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

Certainly, the bit about the Romans is (a very old) urban myth. Or rather, dirt tracks and other primitive roads were about 5 feet across all around the world simply because that's how big a horse and cart would be. You could substitute Ming Chinese, Tudor English or Ancient Egyptians for Romans and it'd still be basically true.

Cheers, NeMo

[ScottyStitch]

It's a good story. But not necessarily true. Do have a read of Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

Certainly, the bit about the Romans is (a very old) urban myth. Or rather, dirt tracks and other primitive roads were about 5 feet across all around the world simply because that's how big a horse and cart would be. You could substitute Ming Chinese, Tudor English or Ancient Egyptians for Romans and it'd still be basically true.

Cheers, NeMo

Killjoy!

[austinbob]

It's a good story. But not necessarily true. Do have a read of Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

Certainly, the bit about the Romans is (a very old) urban myth. Or rather, dirt tracks and other primitive roads were about 5 feet across all around the world simply because that's how big a horse and cart would be. You could substitute Ming Chinese, Tudor English or Ancient Egyptians for Romans and it'd still be basically true.

Cheers, NeMo

That's a great article Nemo - and is obviously focused on the missive in my post. Just a shame that the orignal post is not 100% true cos I loved the story. Thanks

[austinbob]

It's a good story. But not necessarily true. Do have a read of Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp

Certainly, the bit about the Romans is (a very old) urban myth. Or rather, dirt tracks and other primitive roads were about 5 feet across all around the world simply because that's how big a horse and cart would be. You could substitute Ming Chinese, Tudor English or Ancient Egyptians for Romans and it'd still be basically true.

Cheers, NeMo

Killjoy!

Quite!! ScottyStitch. I would have loved to have believed the original - but then who is right??

[NeMo]

As Twain was supposed to have said, without any literary evidence apparently, "Why let the truth get in the way of a good story, unless you can't think of anything better".

Cheers, NeMo

[austinbob]

As Twain was supposed to have said, without any literary evidence apparently, "Why let the truth get in the way of a good story, unless you can't think of anything better".

Cheers, NeMo

Again - 'Quite' - Lets believe the original story and publish it on Wiki - a lot of their stuff is a bit iffy anyway.

[Agrippa]

I was going to say that if the Roman empire had not declined they might have gone
on to build the first steam locos, then they could say "My chariot's on fire".

I'll get me toga.....

[austinbob]

Here's a web site that gives more information - unfortunately is doesn't back up the original story in this post but its still very interesting and probably true.
http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/magazine/34/34.html

Such a shame...

[Newportnobby]

I was going to say that if the Roman empire had not declined they might have gone
on to build the first steam locos, then they could say "My chariot's on fire".

I'll get me toga.....

Or as Monty Python said "What have the Romans ever done for us?" (Life of Brian)
So railways can be added to heating, bathing, aqueducts etc

[ScottyStitch]

I was going to say that if the Roman empire had not declined they might have gone
on to build the first steam locos, then they could say "My chariot's on fire".

I'll get me toga.....

Or as Monty Python said "What have the Romans ever done for us?" (Life of Brian)
So railways can be added to heating, bathing, aqueducts etc

Sanitation...

[edwin_m]

The last bit of the story about the shuttle boosters is also totally rubbish, failing to understand the difference between structure gauge and track gauge.  Or alternatively why the horses are twice as lardy in America. 

[Wingman mothergoose]

It's mostly a myth, the Romans didn't build roads with ruts in, as the roads were mainly built by the legions to enable swift movement of foot soldiers. Any ruts were probably worn into the roads by chariots or goods wagons over the long years since those roads were first built.
Yes, the 'standard gauge' of 4 foot 8.5 inches was used by the USA because most of their railroads had British engineers and board members, and the standard gauge became 'standard' after a British government ruling after standard gauge had spread over most of the UK except the GWR and resulted in bedlam where passengers and goods had to change trains from standard to broad gauge.
The track gauge at the colliery(and probably most of the other local pits that were owned by the same company) where George Stephenson originally worked as engineer was 8 foot 4.5 inches, and was more than likely only that gauge because that was the widest the wagon axles could be without breaking under the weight of coal in the loaded wagons, or any wider and more than one horse was required to pull them back up the wagonway from the quayside. And as George Stephenson or his son Robert had a finger in most of the pies that were the early railway schemes, 8 foot 4.5 inches was the natural choice as that was what they were used to working with.
The link between standard gauge railway track and Ancient Rome is tenuous to say the least!

Chris