The commission bubble

[Sipat]

Commissions...
Today Kernow have announced a 116/117/118 DMU in 00 gauge. Bitter sweet now because Kernow have commissioned DJM does Kernow or DJM own the IP to the design? Similarly the Hattons and DJM King,  the Kernow and DJM railmotor and so on. Because these models have been commissioned in 00 there are no plans to release them in N even if there is a market for them. Had these models been Main range by DJM then I imagine we would be seeing N gauge versions appearing alongside the larger counterparts. Does anybody know the truth behind my speculation? Is DJM free to produce an N 117 for example or will that now have to be driven by Kernow. Does that also mean that the other manufacturers are less likely to produce anything because these will now be on the radar from DJM as he now has a head start on scanning and drawing? I know I'm picking on Dave here but it applies equally to the other manufacturer/retailer commissions...

[Bealman]

  Not much help, I know, but 

[Zakalwe]

you can't own IP as a model train manufacturer to a facsimile of something that exists in the public domain.   You could, however own IP for an innovative motor or manufacturing process for example

Now, the company's product you are copying may own the IP on the product and may or may not care but may infer exclusivity on you for a period of time (for example the class 68 and class 70) as a manufacturer.

so, if someone else wants to make a class 116 in N gauge they are not precluded by the model company but maybe by the manufacturer

Thee maybe a statement in the commissioning company that the model manufacturer can or can not use the materials used for the larger scale to apply the shrink ray elsewhere

I've tried to keep the reply agnostic of manufacturer     Someone who produces model stuff will no doubt have navigated this issue so can correct where i am wrong

[edwin_m]

Wasn't the Deltic prototype a NRM exclusive in 00 (produced by Bachmann) and a standard range Farish product in N?  And didn't the NGS Stove R form the basis of the Hornby Mag one in 00 produced by Dapol?  If so this goes to show it's possible but different contracts may have different terms. 

[Buzzard]

What I find annoying about commissions is that they eat up manufacturing capacity and so previously announced ready to run models get pushed back and back.

Perhaps it's all down to the fact that someone else is taking the financial risk and so the manufacturers keep their workers busy without having to shell out their own money.  Makes sense in these cash strapped days but doesn't help the non-patient ones amongst us.

Anyone fancy doing a Kickstarter project for a Class 117 in N?

Nigel

[railsquid]

Anyone fancy doing a Kickstarter project for a Class 117 in N?

I'd happily pledge for one.

[PLD]

The answer to the OP is it will depend on the terms of the contract for who owns the CAD work, and also who owns the tooling which may dictate future runs either in the name of the commissioner or the manufacturer.

Wasn't the Deltic prototype a NRM exclusive in 00 (produced by Bachmann) and a standard range Farish product in N?

Yes... though I believe Bachmann paid a small royalty to the NRM for each N-gauge one sold (at least for the first batch)

And didn't the NGS Stove R form the basis of the Hornby Mag one in 00 produced by Dapol?  If so this goes to show it's possible but different contracts may have different terms.

No... For the 00 one, Dapol went back and started from scratch with new CAD and artwork which is why there are fundamental errors in the 00 version that weren't there in the preceding N gauge one!

Why they did that is subject of conflicting reports... depending on who you believe, either Model Rail would not meet the fee demanded by the N gauge Society for using their artwork, the NGS refused permission for its use, or Model Rail considered it wasn't good enough to scale-up.

[darren.c]

while working for a large model shop chain that now is gone from the high street, we did a lot of work with companies to produce ltd eds. one of these was the OO mk1 parcels (pos) van we were given a year exclusivity on this models we also did a nose tool for one of there peak models so that we could produce ixion model and also one blue peak  after which bachmann could use it as they wish .
because tooling is so expensive im sure this will be the case with many of the ltd eds that are commissioned now so that the makers of the tool would be able to make money of the them as making a run of 500 to 1000 models will not pay for that tool .

[edwin_m]

And didn't the NGS Stove R form the basis of the Hornby Mag one in 00 produced by Dapol?  If so this goes to show it's possible but different contracts may have different terms.

No... For the 00 one, Dapol went back and started from scratch with new CAD and artwork which is why there are fundamental errors in the 00 version that weren't there in the preceding N gauge one!

Why they did that is subject of conflicting reports... depending on who you believe, either Model Rail would not meet the fee demanded by the N gauge Society for using their artwork, the NGS refused permission for its use, or Model Rail considered it wasn't good enough to scale-up.

Thanks for the info - but I'm pretty sure it was Hornby Mag not Model Rail (please correct me if I'm wrong).  I bet Hornby (the manufacturer) weren't pleased with their name ending up on a product which turned out to be such a lemon when they didn't even produce it! 

[PLD]

Thanks for the info - but I'm pretty sure it was Hornby Mag not Model Rail (please correct me if I'm wrong).

No you are correct - It was Hornby Mag.  My error from reading multiple threads on different forums at the same time!!

[Chetcombe]

Anyone fancy doing a Kickstarter project for a Class 117 in N?

I'd happily pledge for one.

A 117 is top of my wish list...

[Zunnan]

Anyone fancy doing a Kickstarter project for a Class 117 in N?

I'd happily pledge for one.

A 117 is top of my wish list...

Make it a 116 and I'd pledge for half a dozen, 117s are a bit too 'foreign' for me

[red_death]

The situation for Kernow and DJM is as follows:

Kernow own the CAD and research package for what they commission.  Kernow have no present intention to scale down any of their 4mm models, however they are open to coming to some form of commercial arrangement if their work was useful to a 2mm model commisioner.

I asked 

Cheers, Mike

[Karhedron]

Perhaps if the Pendolino project goes ahead, this could open the door to other comissions based on Kernow's existing CAD work.

A few years back, I talked speculatively to Kernow about N Gauge versions of their china clay wagons with an eye to working with the NGS. This particular project did not get off the ground for various reasons but I can confirm they were willing to share their CADs etc for a reasonable return. On that particular project they were interested in 10% of the production run for them to sell through their store. This was a difficulty as the NGS only allows its products to be sold directly for tax reasons.

However if it was a non-NGS kick-starter (like the Pendolino) this sort of arrangement would not be a problem. Kernow's CADs would reduce the costs meaning that a project might only need 900 backers to fund instead of 1000. This would fund Kernow's 10% cut of the production run.

Things to bear in mind though. R&D and CADs only make up a relatively small part of the total costs of developing a new model (10% is probably a fair estimate). The cost of the tooling and manufacture are much higher. Thus Kernow's CADs are only a starting point.

I agree it is a shame that Kernow are not interested in pushing any N gauge versions themselves as it does indirectly reduce the chances of these prototypes being seen in N. However other people could start from scratch with the research or reach an ammicable arrangement with Kernow to use theirs. The question, as always, is who will do it?

Dave Jones is obviously best placed but his working capital is tied up for the next few years (exclusing comissions of course). Maybe we would need to take it up ourselves. However, do any of Kernow's products command the iconic status of the Penolino? Would 1000 people pledge for a Railmotor?

I know from experience that people can be cautious and fickle. My own Railcar project only reached 140-ish pledges.

[red_death]

A potential way to get round the NGS and Corporation Tax would be to have a joint commission between Kernow and the NGS with Kernow getting their 10% stock and the NGS the rest.  The NGS would not then be selling to non-members (assuming the NGS was interested!).

If you could nail down one of 116/117/118 then that might be a good one, or look at things like wagons (I agree about the china clay wagons) where people will buy multiples.

Cheers, Mike