Fedup with Steam Locos.

[longbridge]

I may sound like a moaner but after making 3 attempts at building an N gauge layout that runs steam locos I finally pulled the plug.

Having grown up with British steam in the 1940/50s my first preference is naturally steam locos, maybe I am just unlucky but I have had very little success with Farish  old and new steam locos, split gears, wheels out of quarter plus a few other nasties has done my head in.

I am convinced the only British outline N scale models are either Minitrix and Union Mills which are not much good to anyone that wants to model the GWR.

I finally bit the bullet today and traded all of my N gauge steam locos on Farish diesels, having been involved with Japanese and American N Gauge over many years I am impressed with the Bachmann Farish offerings, if only they could make their steam locos as good.

I got my first Farish loco in the early 1990s they were so darn poor runners that I started an American layout in N gauge, I tried Farish again in 2006 and found them to be almost as bad so decided to model Japanese N Gauge, I thried Farish steam again a couple of years ago and bought a few lousy running locos but I was so fed up with N gauge that I decided to model American HO, I have over 20 USA HO locos and every one of them runs like a Swiss Watch.

I still prefer N gauge and British but will never waste any more money of steam locos, I now know why just about every N gauge layout that I see at shows are running either Japanese, American or Continental models, I do see several British diesel layouts but the run diesels, steam layouts at shows are as scarce as Hens Teeth.

I accept that there are forum members that wont agree with my thoughts so bear in mind that I am sharing my experience only, others may have been luckier.

[NeMo]

I don't like saying it, but I agree.

I think that at 2 mm scale, the connections between tenders and locomotives, outside valve gear, and front pony trucks all become very delicate.

These parts are intrinsically more durable at the 4 mm scales and upwards. Or put another way, at 4 mm scales they're easier to make reliably well and more difficult to damage in use.

I do like the robust Union Mills approach, and for "playing trains" (in the best possible sense) these are ideal. For hardcore scale modellers there are probably too many compromises, though many modellers have upgraded the detail on them in all sorts of ways.

I wouldn't dismiss steam locomotives from other manufacturers entirely though. The 0-6-0 shunting types are basically the same whether the plastic body on top is a steam or diesel. So I'm not averse to getting a 'Jinty' or pannier tank should the occasion arise.

On the other hand, having two Dapol 9Fs that I'm afraid to run in case they break, I'm not predisposed to spending money on any more tender engines.

But like you, I'm still happy to buy diesels and electrics, which seem to get better every year. Dapol especially seem to be really making leaps and bounds in terms of detailing, and Farish mechanisms (in my experience) appear to be extremely reliable. Hopefully DJ Models will have the best of both worlds!

Cheers, NeMo

[Portpatrick]

I appreciate where the above 2 contributors are coming from though I will continue to buy and run British Steam.

I admit - at risk of being shot by some - that I feel the balance between level of detail and robustness has moved too far towards detail.  Yes valve gear, tender connections and handrails for starters are fragile.  This makes handling more risky than in the past - an issue if, like mine,  your stock is moved to and from exhibitions for your own or club layouts.  A comparison of the old Peco Jubilee and the Farish version is interesting - the Peco still looks good.  I have actually replaced all but the Peco version I turned into a rebuilt Jubilee. 

Union Mills are indeed robust and at normal viewing distance to my mind very good.  You can add details if you wish - see a recent article in the N Gauge Journal.  I am not wholly sure the tender connection is as strong as older Farish, so I have some spares in stock just in case.

I am not really sure about Minitrix limited range of steam.  apart from the A3 and A4, there was a lot of compromise.  The Dapol Brit is a vast improvement on the older version except for silver grey wheels and their tiresome shaft through the cab.  And I have had the plastic bits of the Ivatt valve gear break apart.   The 260 was the weakest loco I ever had.  My new Farish is a vast improvement.  I still run a lot of Poole style Farish chassis - under kits and as full  locos.  these are robust and reliable.  Also good runners.  I don't worry about noise.  Ok the first Black 5s I had in 1978/9, did require minor tweaking such that the pick ups made consistent contact with the wheels and the valve gear did not bind.  But that was easily diagnosed and done.  Only recently has anno domini caught up with them.  I now have Chinese chassis underneath the renumbered bodies.But GP chassis, the Compound, early class 40 , 25 etc (split gears apart), Crab and 264Thave all been fine.  Yes, Chinese chassis are generally smoother and quieter.

As they say, each to his own.  I have possibly been lucky in the large number of new generation steam I have bought in recent years.  And I cannot condone the apparent variability in quality we have seen reported.  I paid £12.50  (slight discounted) for my Minitrix Brit in 1976.  An impressionistic model it ran well until I sold it!  An inflation factor of 10+ to current prices looks more than general inflation.  So yes we are paying more than we once did in real terms and I expect greater quality for the price not less.  THere does seem to be work to be done.

[Portpatrick]

Just checked the RPI.  From Sept 1976 to Sept 2014, it increased by a factor of near enough 6.25.  So it is fair to say that the real cost of our hobby has risen.  Whether we are receiving value for that is an issue we will all feel differently about.   To me consistent quality and fitness for regular use is more important than intricacy in detail.

[PostModN66]

I paid £12.50  (slight discounted) for my Minitrix Brit in 1976.  An impressionistic model it ran well until I sold it!  An inflation factor of 10+ to current prices looks more than general inflation.  So yes we are paying more than we once did in real terms and I expect greater quality for the price not less. 

Inflation is a hobby of mine!!!! (Must get out more!)

£12.50 in 1976 turns out to be £91.58 in 2014 using one of the online calculators, so allowing for a bit of discount, we are in the same territory (£110ish for a Dapol one from Hattons),  20% more value for a more accurate, detailed model?

Cheers  Jon 

[Portpatrick]

I paid £12.50  (slight discounted) for my Minitrix Brit in 1976.  An impressionistic model it ran well until I sold it!  An inflation factor of 10+ to current prices looks more than general inflation.  So yes we are paying more than we once did in real terms and I expect greater quality for the price not less. 

Inflation is a hobby of mine!!!! (Must get out more!)

£12.50 in 1976 turns out to be £91.58 in 2014 using one of the online calculators, so allowing for a bit of discount, we are in the same territory (£110ish for a Dapol one from Hattons),  20% more value for a more accurate, detailed model?

Cheers  Jon 

Hi Jon

I am idling this morning myself!   And as a retired accountant .....  :)Applying the ONS RPI factors (c41 to c 253) to my 1976 purchase I came to a little over £78 at today's prices  .  My Dapol Brit cost £90 in Aug 2011 (at the Show in Milton Keynes).  I guess your source of stats paints a slightly less horrible picture.  The Dapol model is most certainly superior - apart from the wheel colour and their shaft approach).  On my sample the running quality is also good.  But no getting away from the fact of real price increases.

[PostModN66]

I defer to your greater qualifications - and I'm not sure what was in the basket for the site I used!

I was also speculating though that there is greater volatility in prices now though, so I don't think you have to pay the "full" price if you are prepared to wait....

E.g. I paid £45 for an 86 from the Dapol stand at TINGS, I have in the past bought new 73s for less than £30, new 66s for £50 from Hattons etc.  It's the EasyJet effect....!

Anyway....I need to declare myself off topic...sorry 

Cheers  Jon 

[cragster101]

i was going to make my own thread based on this and my own terrible start in N gauge but never got round to it, but i feel is still worth mentioning.

first purchase a few months ago was a starter set with a farish class 04 (yes i know its not steam but its relevant to the story), which seems to have a mind of its own in terms of what speed it wants to go at.

second was a dapol 14xx, which had a wheel quartering issue, so got sent straight back.

the 14xx was replaced by my third, a farish j39, which had jerky movement at low speed. as it is tender driven, i could slightly lift the tender above the rails, put my ear to it and hear the motor fluctuating. that got sent to bachmann for repair under warranty a few days ago.

UK steam is my first choice, but not to the point where i am willing to put up with this. I'm moving to kato made US stuff which judging by what i hear (or read) about them is a good idea. I've always likes US diesel so its not exactly a disappointing move, just one which i hoped to make under different circumstances.

[silly moo]

This is an interesting topic. I've had British steam locos for over 20 years and have found from experience that they generally run well on properly laid track, diesels are a lot more forgiving of slightly dodgy track.

I had a home layout which through trial an error had well laid track. All my steam locos ran without trouble on my home layout. 

The problem came when I took my locos to run on the club's modular layout, each module had been built by a different person each with varying levels of skill. My Poole Farish locos would invariably derail, and were rude comments about Farish quality, mainly from people who were running Kato diesels.

The Minitrix and Peco locos ran perfectly. Even some of the Farish coaches used to derail.

I now have new Farish and Dapol steam models which run well on both the home and club layout so things have improved.

As others have mentioned QC is still an issue but touch wood, I have been lucky so far. Diesels by virtue of their design are bound to be less problematical.

[longbridge]

Its nice to hear that some folks have had success with Farish steam locos, I only wish I was one of the 

[Dorsetmike]

in my 40 years modelling I've only had one diesel, a Minitrix 27, long gone - motor burnt out, now all steam, Poole Farish, Dapol, UM, Fleischmann, Arnold, Minitrix, Peco Jubilee; mostly kits or scratch built on the above chassis (except Dapol and UM) not had many problems I couldn't fix myself.

[longbridge]

Thats the problem Mike, you mentioned :-      not had many problems I couldn't fix myself.

I have also been involved with model railways for over a half century, I have modelled most gauges and nationalities, at no time did I ever have to do as much repair and in some cases return items to the manufacturer as I did with some brands of British N Gauge steam locos.

After many years of reliable use most HO and N gauge modellers just need to do a bit of routine wheel cleaning, oiling and a general cleaning of their locos, sadly I haven't found that with Farish steam..

British N Gauge modellers that buy Farish steam locos should be able to run their locos in the same way, sadly thats not the case, we have to be a locomotive repair person as well, a quick glance on this forum will uncover many threads and sections devoted to loco repair, something that is much harder to find when it comes to American, Continental and Japanese N gauge models.

I am not trying to be a Farish knocker here but I am pretty upset that I have had so much bad luck with their steam products.

[Agrippa]

Regarding the prices of locos now compared with the past don't forget the VAT rate is
much higher now than in the 1970s, 20% compared with 10- 12.5%.

The general remarks about Farish steam locos make for depressing reading.

[Dorsetmike]

Must admit I only have one recent Farish, a Scot, which is being hacked into a Lord Nelson all the rest are Poole design. the Dapol ones I have are M7s and one B1 which I will probably be hacking into something Southern.

I'm waiting on the Farish N class mogul and the Dapol Schools, will just have to keep digits crossed.

[trainsdownunder]

Poor quality UK stuff is one reason why I moved to US modelling a long time ago (the other is I like the variety and colours).

If I did build UK style I would definitely be sticking to Pannier locos and similar small locos and work on a "shunting" style layout.

I do agree that more robust less detail is sometimes the answer, and admit that recent purchases of old HO stock have backed this argument up.