Southern Region help needed

[kiwirail]

Hi Guys from a rather wintery New Zealand.  What an awesome forum. I happened on it purely by accident and there seems to be the answers to everything here.

If you don't want the biography please skip the next paragraph and hopefully you can help me with the last paragraph.

It all started for me back in the mid 1950's standing on Surbiton Station with my Ian Allens Southern Region book eagerly crossing out train numbers as they passed though.  Battle of Britain and Merchant Navy Class hauling Pullman carriages on the Atlantic Coast Express to places I still haven't seen.  In '81 we left for NZ and my only trip back was last year when I took in the Nat Railway Museum in York and there was the loco I saw years ago.  The bug was back.

By chance I came across an article about the 1948 Locomotive Exchange Trials when BR decided on a test to determine the best loco for future development.  The route Waterloo to Exeter through Surbiton ?? using LMS Princess Class, LNER Mallard, A SR Merchant Navy Class and a Western Region 6000 or King Class.  Now I can have big Locos all on the same line, be accurate but finding a suitable location to model is the probem.  I have cleaned out the garage much to the delight of the "Boss" but she didn't realize I was going to put a wall up to give me a 6mtre by 2mtre model room.

Popping down and looking at a location with sidings and the main line is not an option, its 13,000 miles away!!!  Any clues please?  Does anyone know what the carriages were then on that trial?

[Sprintex]

Welcome in kiwirail

Can't help you with your question I'm afraid, way before my time and era of interest, but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly

Enjoy the forum


Paul

[n85cs]

HI YOU MAYBE looking at the 1948 locomotive exchanges

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Locomotive_Exchange_Trials

The 1948 Locomotive Exchange Trials were organised by the newly nationalised British Railways (BR). Locomotives from the former "Big Four" constituent companies (GWR, LMS, LNER, SR) were transferred to and worked on other regions. Officially, these comparisons were to identify the best qualities of the four different schools of thought of locomotive design so that they could be used in the new BR standard designs. However, the testing had little scientific rigour, and political influence meant that LMS practice was largely followed by the new standard designs regardless. However, the trials were useful publicity for BR to show the unity of the new British Railways.

LMS engines operated over the Southern Region where there were no water troughs were paired with four-axled ex-WD tenders with larger water tanks. These were specially given LMS lettering for the occasion. Similarly, ex-Southern types used elsewhere were paired with ex-LMS tenders with water scoops.

Locomotives used were as follows (NB numbers given should be the ones carried at the time, so this is a somewhat curious mixture of old pre-nationalisation numbers, prefixed numbers, and new BR numbers):



Contents  [hide]
1 Express passenger locomotives
2 Freight locomotives
3 Preserved 1948 Exchange Trial participants
4 References
5 External links


Express passenger locomotives[edit]
ex-GWR King Class 6018 King Henry VI on the Leeds - Grantham East Coast mainline.
ex-GWR Hall Class 6990 Witherslack Hall on the Great Central Main Line.
ex-SR West Country class 34004 Yeovil on the Highland Main Line
ex-SR West Country class 34005 Barnstaple on the St. Pancras - Manchester route.
ex-SR West Country class 34006 Bude on the Bristol - Taunton - Plymouth run and GCR.
ex-SR Merchant Navy Class 35017 Belgian Marine on the Leeds - Grantham LNER.
ex-SR Merchant Navy Class 35018 British India Line on Waterloo route.
ex-SR Merchant Navy Class 35019 French Line C.G.T on the Paddington - Taunton line.
ex-LMS Rebuilt Royal Scot Class 46154 The Hussar Waterloo - Exeter route.
ex-LMS Rebuilt Royal Scot Class 46162 Queens Westminster Rifleman
ex-LMS Princess Coronation Class 46236 City of Bradford.
ex-LMS Black Five 44799 on the Highland Main Line
ex-LMS Black Five 45253 on the St. Pancras - Manchester run and GCR.
ex-LNER Class A4 E22 Mallard on the Waterloo - Exeter run.
ex-LNER Class A4 60033 Seagull Waterloo - Exeter and GW mainline.
ex-LNER Class A4 60034 Lord Faringdon Preston - Carlisle route.
ex-LNER Class B1 61251 Oliver Bury on the Bristol - Taunton - Plymouth run.
ex-LNER Class B1 61292 on the Highland Main Line

Freight locomotives[edit]
ex-GWR 2884 Class 3803
ex-LMS 8F class 48189 on the Eastern Region.
ex-LNER Class O1 63773 on the Western Region
ex-LNER Class O7 63169
ex-WD Austerity 2-10-0 73774 on South Wales route

Preserved 1948 Exchange Trial participants[edit]
GWR 6990 Witherslack Hall - Great Central Railway (preserved).
SR Merchant Navy class 35018 British India Line - South Coast Steam Ltd, on the Isle of Portland.
LNER A4 class 4468 Mallard - National Railway Museum Locomotion Outpost, Shildon.
GWR 2884 Class 3803 - South Devon Railway.

References[edit]

Allen, Cecil J. (1949). The Locomotive Exchanges 1870 - 1948. Ian Allan Ltd. A comprehensive book on locomotive exchanges, giving details of each trial and the locomotives involved.

External links[edit]
35018 British Indian Line at SCS Ltd, Isle of Portland, December 2007.
More photographs of 35018 on the Isle of Portland
Nine Elms shed and the 1948 Locomotive Exchange trials.
46236 City of Bradford on Shap image.
46236 City of Bradford image.
Princess Royal Class Locomotive Trust page on the LMS dynamometer car used in the trials.

http://www.svsfilm.com/nineelms/exchange.htm

http://grahammuz.com/2011/09/26/talking-stock-2-the-1948-locomotive-exchange-trials/

could modify to n gauge

[Caz]

Welcome on board kiwirail, great to have you join us, there are a few other kiwi's on here who will no doubt make themselves known in due course.  As you have already discovered the forum in a wealth of information and its members are only too ready to help whenever needed. 

Use the search function in the menu bar to find all those titbits of information already on here.

[Bealman]

Hi there, kiwirail from across the ditch!! I too have a fondness for the SR even though I spent my youth in the NE.

Thanks for the kind words about the forum, and a big welcome to you! 

[Newportnobby]

Welcome to the forum, Kiwirail

Long list of automotive power there, but I'm afraid you'll have to wait one of our rolling stock experts to come along for the other bit.

[Dorsetmike]

The Pullmans you would have seen at Surbiton would have been the "Devon Belle" with an observation coach at the rear, the Bournemouth Belle and occasionally special boat trains to Southampton, sometimes the boat trains would have only one or two Pullmans between ordinary stock .

The Atlantic Coast Express was not Pullman.

If you want RTR stock for SR  or BR(S) (Western division out of Waterloo)) then the Farish or Dapol Bulleid pacifics, Dapol M7 and Q1 and Union Mills T9, 700 and 0395 are about all you will find until the Farish N class and Dapol Schools eventually appear.

Kits - Langley do the S15, BHE do the N15 anything else is either hack or scratch build.

Coaching stock Farish now do the Bulleid coaches, Dapol have promised some Maunsell stock, Farish do Pullmans, BR Mk 1s would also be seen.

As for locos of other lines, the 1948 exchanges as listed by n85cs only appeared for a few weeks, a bit later in the 1950s, can't remember the exact dates but the Bulleid pacifics had to be temporarily withdrawn due to some failures leading to remedial work  they were replaced by Brittanias and ex LNER V2s again only a short period, there were still plenty of ex SR 4-6-0s about.

Locos & coaching stock from other lines mostly joined Southern metals at Basingstoke, from Birkenhead, the Midlands, York and Newcastle. Ex LMS locos and stock would usually arrive further south off the Somerset and Dorset line.

[kiwirail]

Thanks Guys, more information to digest.  Mike you are most certainly right, its hard to remember what you see in 195? when you can't remember what you had for tea last night!!!!

Bealman, nice to hear from you.  When is this wet weather going to end, the back paddocks are like a swamp, still it was a good excuse to get the Gib on the walls and now only need paint and I am ready to go.

[Bealman]

No wet weather where I live, buddy! In fact it hasn't rained since I got back from England at the beginning of June. It is cold of a morning, though.

I visited the NRM in York last year too, when four A4 Pacific's were still in residence, but what impressed me almost as much was the Q1!! Love that loco!

I'm thinking of a short trip to NZ end of September-early October, by the way. 

[kiwirail]

Hi Bealman

Yes York is on my list again.  I was too early to catch the big gathering but a great place to visit

When you come over and are in Auckland City if you have a spare hour we should catch up and have a coffee.

[kiwirail]

Hi Guys

After a forced layoff for 10 months I can truthfully say that I have started.  The purists may be offended but I have Southern Region passing through Western Region on the way to the coast.  There are 3 locations, Paddock Bottom where there will be a small quarry,  Jersey Paddock with a main line station (for SR and GWR) and Goats End which will be a small village at the end of the line with a small fishing dock.  A lot of inspiration came from Stourford layout that appeared in Nov 13 Model Rail.

The area I have to work in at the end of the garage is 6 mtrs x 2 mtrs and as it will not be portable the walls have been used.  All the framing is 20mm x 20mm soft pine and 3mm ply laminated and glued with PVA.  The main front beam which is 190mm deep and 4.8mtres long is made this way, strong as and weighs next to nothing, I could probably get away without the ply diaphragm supporting it in the middle but for peace of mind I can lean on it heavily now!!!!

The 2 lines for Southern will travel along the back and return by dropping down on a hidden incline at each end and be below the top at the front.

Interesting experiment not building on a flat board and only having 3mm ply under the tracks and main features.  More to come in the future.

[Sprintex]

Nice big space to work with, sounds interesting

As for the 'purists' - it's not their layout


Paul

[Bealman]

Good to see and hear that you have made a start! Your baseboards look great - I totally over-engineered mine - they are supported by 4x2 timbers! Yours are a lot more elegant.

Pleased also that you are going down the open framework route with ply just under the trackwork and major features. That way you can model the landscape above and below the railway.

Great stuff! Looking forward to progress reports. 

[Karhedron]

Now I can have big Locos all on the same line, be accurate but finding a suitable location to model is the probem.

n85cs has already given an excellent rundown of the Exchange trial locos. The thing to remember is that they were quite spread out geographically. If you want to run trains from all the Big 4 without being restricted to the exchange trials, there were a few places where they all met in real life.

Oxford is the best known example being a GWR station. SR express locos on Bournemouth-York interregional expresses (Bulleid Pacifics were particularly favouredon this route so a nice excuse for the Farish Mechant Navy). LMS locals and freight on the ex-LNWR Bicester line and LNER passenger and freight on the Bletchley line.

[D1042 Western Princess]

n85cs has already given an excellent rundown of the Exchange trial locos. The thing to remember is that they were quite spread out geographically. If you want to run trains from all the Big 4 without being restricted to the exchange trials, there were a few places where they all met in real life.

Hello and welcome, Kiwi. To say I am a tad envious of your space for a layout is an understatement - I seriously doubt I'm alone here!
Back to business.
In his book 'British Rail, the first twenty five years' Michael R Bonavia also says that some of the trials took place between Perth and Inverness. Sadly he does not say that Kings, Halls, West Countrys or Merchant Navys (all involved in the trials) reached Inverness - but (Scottish modellers) he also doesn't say they didn't!
As to the types of trains hauled in the exchanges these varied from express passenger, local passenger, parcels, express freight and local goods so it might be impossible to track down exactly the kinds of vehicles hauled.
Someone wrote that you (Kiwi) might face a problem with running SR trains through GWR territory from people who are 'sticklers' for prototype accuracy. I am one such, and I have NO problem with that.
There are (were, sadly) many places where GWR/SR mixed, including Waterloo, Portsmouth, Guildford, Weymouth and, of course, a large part of Devon and Cornwall.
Best wishes, and hope the above is of some help,
Greg.