TPO Formation Order

[REGP]

Having just obtained a second Era 5 TPO (374-901A) from TMC is started me looking at the formation of TPO trains again. I know from previous threads both here and elsewhere that the number and type of carriage used depended both on the route and to some extent availability.

What I was wondering about was the order in which these carriages were normally assembled.

Were the sorting vans at the front followed by BGs and maybe a BSK at the rear for staff on the longer journeys or were the sorting vans sandwiched between BGs with a BSO somewhere in the rake?

Would a rake of BG TPO TPO SO BG be anything like prototypical?

Also where do CCTs come in?

Unfortunately the excellent Ian Allen book "Travelling Post Office" by Peter Johnson doesn't give me the answers. Although the few photos of complete trains seem to have the TPO at the front  I can't work out what the other carriages are due to my lack of knowledge.

Therefore any comments, suggestions and pointers to reference work most welcome.

Ray

[Caz]

Have a look at this thread where it has been discussed before http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=5788.msg139349#msg139349   

[REGP]

Thanks Caz, I have read that thread and was vainly hoping that since then someone may have "stumbled" across more info.

Will keep digging and see if I can come up with anything worthwhile will post if I do.

Ray

[d-a-n]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44975-tpo-and-parcel-trains/

[REGP]

d-a-n thanks for the link, it's a very interesting thread, but I am still searching.

Ray

[koyli55002]

I have copies of two articles that may be of help ...
One from Rail Express (March 2011) showing some sample TPO formations for dates from 1986 to 1996.
The second from Modern Railway Modelling (Spring 2005) showing some sample TPO formations for dates from 1993 to 2003.
Would they be of any use or do you have them already ?

[martink]

From Xpress Publishing's Operation Cornwall, the 1957 22:10 TPO Paddington to Penzance was arranged as...

    Siphon G,
    Stowage Brake,
    Stowage Van,
    3xTPO,
    BG

...  with 4 more Siphon Gs at the tail dropped off one by one enroute.

[GScaleBruce]

One approach, if you're making up your own TPO working, is to think about the work flow on a TPO. Generally, and so far as I can recall (having had some responsibility for the operation of the Peterborough - Crewe and Peterborough - Ipswich TPOs in the 1980's), the TPO/sorting carriage needs to be close to a supply of unsorted first class mail, and have somewhere to stow the sorted mail. So although two sorting coaches might be placed next to each other, they'll need gangway access to stowage vehicles, and no-one wants to carry a full mail bag any further than necessary.

Other vehicles without gangway access, or non Post Office vehicles, might be attached to the ends of the train to convey second class mail (which won't be sorted on the move) and parcels (ditto), although by the 1980's Royal Mail parcels operated to a separate network using GUVs and BGs etc. Royal Mail Parcels moved off rail and onto road before Royal Mail Letters, of course.

By the 1980's, I'm fairly sure that the TPOs didn't convey passenger accommodation any more, although newspaper trains did, and vehicles conveying Royal Mail traffic did get attached to passenger trains. This was sometimes problematic as most parcels (NPCCS) vehicles were still vacuum braked whereas all passenger trains were air braked.

Edit: by not conveying passenger accommodation, I'm referring to public/fare paying passengers rather than conveying a BSK for staff use.

[REGP]

I have copies of two articles that may be of help ...
One from Rail Express (March 2011) showing some sample TPO formations for dates from 1986 to 1996.
The second from Modern Railway Modelling (Spring 2005) showing some sample TPO formations for dates from 1993 to 2003.
Would they be of any use or do you have them already ?

Thanks for the info, I don't have copies of those articles.

Will try and source back copies.

Ray

[REGP]

One approach, if you're making up your own TPO working, is to think about the work flow on a TPO. Generally, and so far as I can recall (having had some responsibility for the operation of the Peterborough - Crewe and Peterborough - Ipswich TPOs in the 1980's), the TPO/sorting carriage needs to be close to a supply of unsorted first class mail, and have somewhere to stow the sorted mail. So although two sorting coaches might be placed next to each other, they'll need gangway access to stowage vehicles, and no-one wants to carry a full mail bag any further than necessary

I was wondering if there was some sort of workflow arrangment whereby the unsorted mail was in a BG one side often sorting van(s) and once sorted was moved onto a BG on the other side of them.

Ray

[GScaleBruce]

I was wondering if there was some sort of workflow arrangment whereby the unsorted mail was in a BG one side often sorting van(s) and once sorted was moved onto a BG on the other side of them.

Ray

In principle yes, but TBH, that's more detail than I can remember! I have a copy of the 1988 Royal Mail TPO booklet,  so I'll see what it says! The mail was loaded pre-sorted by the sorting office for which it was destined (fairly obviously you only load mail onto a train if the mail needs to head in that direction). To that extent, the process is the same whether the mail is going by road or rail. Second class mail wasn't sorted on the move and would be dealt with by the receiving sorting office during the day after arrival. First class mail sent on the TPOs would be sorted on the TPO from primary destination down to delivery office or even walk level. That second tier sort was done while the mail was in transit instead of on arrival at the sorting office (which is what happens now) and meant the first class mail could be delivered the following morning. You start with a lot of unsorted mail but you wouldn't need to store all of it after sorting for the whole journey because the sorted mail would get dropped off along the way. I recall travelling on the Peterborough - Crewe TPO one night and by the time we reached Crewe there was very little mail left on board as we'd dropped it off on the way.

[REGP]

Thanks for the extra info GScaleBruce

It all helps understand how things actually worked.

Ray

[mr bachmann]

robbies rolling stock lists TPO transfers for full sides .

alan

[Calnefoxile]

Also, if you run 2 TPO's in the same rake, then one has to be the other way round, I.E. the old mail bag catcher doors on opposite sides, if that makes sense.

Cheers

Neal.

[REGP]

Also, if you run 2 TPO's in the same rake, then one has to be the other way round, I.E. the old mail bag catcher doors on opposite sides, if that makes sense.

Cheers

Neal.

Interesting Neal but why?

Ray