Grafar Holden tank 0-6-0 chassis

Ozymandias · April 03, 2014, 04:41:34 PM

I've put a note in the wanted section for one of these, but someone may be able to advise me of an alternative...

I bought one of the old Cavendish white metal kits off ebay - a Pannier tank 57xx - to make for my son. Well, me and my son...

I thought it would fit on one of the modern Grafar chassis, but it doesn't...

It says it's for a Grafar Holden Tank 0-6-0 chassis, but I can't find one of these anywhere - does anyone know of another 0-6-0 chassis that would work with this kit? I don't mind doing a minor bit of bodgery to make it work! The modern Grafar Pannier tank chassis are just too long!

Any help/advice gratefully received, or even better if anyone's got something suitable for sale...

PLD · April 03, 2014, 05:36:35 PM

Your most likely current R-T-R chassis to fit a 57xx body kit is... the Dapol 57xx !!

EtchedPixels · April 03, 2014, 08:49:14 PM

Quote from: Ozymandias on April 03, 2014, 04:41:34 PM
I've put a note in the wanted section for one of these, but someone may be able to advise me of an alternative...

I bought one of the old Cavendish white metal kits off ebay - a Pannier tank 57xx - to make for my son. Well, me and my son.

If your son is young please remember that the white metal castings contain lead, and it may contain bismuth and other unsavoury things given its age.

Quote
I thought it would fit on one of the modern Grafar chassis, but it doesn't...

It says it's for a Grafar Holden Tank 0-6-0 chassis, but I can't find one of these anywhere - does anyone know of another 0-6-0 chassis that would work with this kit? I don't mind doing a minor bit of bodgery to make it work! The modern Grafar Pannier tank chassis are just too long!

Are you sure you have a 57xx not a 9400 chassis ?

Alan

Ozymandias · April 04, 2014, 09:15:19 AM

Thanks for the advice, Alan - fear not, the kit will be well coated in primer and paint before my son gets his sticky mitts on it, so he will be in no danger from any nasties in the metal (his dad, on the other hand...) ;-)

I'm pretty sure it's a 57xx chassis I've got - the Cavendish Pannier tank body is quite a bit shorter than the equivalent Grafar loco I bought as a chassis donor. Perhaps this is why Cavendish specified the Holden Tank chassis?

EtchedPixels · April 04, 2014, 01:05:42 PM

Checking - you are correct the 57xx is a little bit longer (not a lot).

You'll be lucky to get a Holden chassis I think - and if you did it would probably best be sold to someone with a Holden tank body !

Of the later chassis the old 08/J94 chassis is a bit shorter so might work but has the wheels much closer together mid chassis.

CarriageShed · April 04, 2014, 01:27:19 PM

The odd Grafar Holden still comes up on fleabay from time to time. Your best best is to save a search for them and be notified when one appears.

As for useful chassis for kits, I've wondered many times whether the Grafar generic 0-6-0T loco is any good. They usually go pretty cheaply so they'd be easy to get hold of.

EtchedPixels · April 04, 2014, 01:33:42 PM

Quote from: Pete33 on April 04, 2014, 01:27:19 PM
As for useful chassis for kits, I've wondered many times whether the Grafar generic 0-6-0T loco is any good. They usually go pretty cheaply so they'd be easy to get hold of.

Holden's usually turn up with busted up chassis - very old and not the most robust mechanism.

The generic 0-6-0T chassis is quite long. It's a nice chassis (especially the Bachmann build one) and there are various practical conversions for the body it comes with - things like GWR ex Rhymney 0-6-2's.

Alan

Caz · April 04, 2014, 02:41:27 PM

Just out of interest, what chassis does the generic Farish Southern loco use?

EtchedPixels · April 04, 2014, 03:11:06 PM

The generic southern loco chassis...

Seems to share a lot of parts with the 94xx but its not the same and a few bits like the underframe/buffers component are I believe unique

oreamnos · April 04, 2014, 06:34:11 PM

I've got an old Holden in the blue GER livery which I purchased on ebay (simply just to have a bit of N gauge history in my collection) a few months back. It is practically new, looks great and it even came in its original box. And it runs complete rubbish. I could call it "Ol' Buzzy and Shakey."

The mechanism is is a tiny 3-pole (?) can motor and the gearing and mechanicals are not built to anything even resembling tight tolerances. The center drivers are neither geared nor attached to the coupling rod and spins freely. I've had the thing apart and it's one of those mechanisms you need three or four hands to fiddle around with because everything (e.g. pickups) is only held in place by something else and then there is just one screw (or is it two?). Getting the wheels quartered properly is a complete PITA...until you realize that they are a push fit onto the keyed axle ends. I discovered that after one of them was shaken off its axel and did a runner down the track.

I have done a visual comparison of the chassis to all the other Farish 0-6-0 chassis, and it's readily apparent that none of the more moden mechanisms will fit under it or look correct so I don't think you'll find another suitable chassis as a substitute for your project.

However, given how poorly the Holden chassis seems to be designed to run, I'm not sure going to the effort of building the kit and sourcing an old Holden chassis only to have the completed loco grind and shudder down the track shedding a wheel or two is a way to endear your son to N gauge!

Matt

Paul B · April 04, 2014, 08:45:24 PM

I have two Holden tank locos, one in GER blue (that has lost its markings after the previous owner soaked it in oil - presumably to try to get it running better, and then put it in its box so the oil ran out all over the body!) and one in LNER green. And I would agree with Matt that they aren't very good runners! Both of mine run very jerkily and unreliably. Also, the wheels are the old 'pizza cutter' style, and sound like they are running on the ballast when I use them on the clubs layout!

However, I am sure that I read somewhere here that the Dapol Terrier chassis is a good substitute for the Holden tank chassis - BUT don't quote me on that as it is not a swap that I have tried yet; just something I read somewhere!

E Pinniger · April 04, 2014, 08:51:50 PM

I'm fairly certain I've read (on this forum?) about people putting the old Holden J69 tank body on the Farish 57xx/Jinty chassis with only a small amount of modification, so I would have thought the Cavendish kit would also fit on the latter with a bit of work. Is the chassis simply too long for the body, or is it just that the body/footplate mouldings won't fit onto the chassis properly? If the latter, it may be possible possible to modify the kit parts so that they fit.

I would agree entirely about the original Holden chassis being an awful runner and best left to collectors! I also have one (acquired as part of a cheap eBay job lot) and my experience attempting to get it running reliably are similar to oreamnos's. Mine is missing the coupling rods but this doesn't make much difference as the driving axles are also connected via gears.

oreamnos · April 04, 2014, 09:54:03 PM

Quote from: E Pinniger on April 04, 2014, 08:51:50 PM
I'm fairly certain I've read (on this forum?) about people putting the old Holden J69 tank body on the Farish 57xx/Jinty chassis with only a small amount of modification, [edit]

Mine is missing the coupling rods but this doesn't make much difference as the driving axles are also connected via gears.

I'll have a look again at the Farish 57 and Jinty to see if they would work, but my recollection is that 1.) the wheel base of both of them is too long for for the Holden and 2.) the wheel diameter of the 57 and Jinty was WAY to large.

Regarding the driving axles, what is funny about the Holden is that the front axle is geared, and the rear axle is geared - but the middle axle is NOT geared, nor is attached to the coupling rods. Instead it just free-wheels. It's been a while since I've had mine apart and I have no wish to disassemble it again, but I seem to remember a thin shaft that ran the length of the chassis between the wheels that connected the front and rear axles and the middle axle was left out so there was room for another gear to mesh with the worm which sat above the shaft. I don't know - my memory is toast. Perhaps I'll just say it is a real oddball mechanism and leave it at that!

Gosh, now I'm curious again about the mechanism. I should have taken some snaps when I had it apart!

Matt

Michael Hendle · April 04, 2014, 10:09:30 PM

Hi
The trouble with Holden Tank it dates back to the first day of Graham Farish N gauge,it was the first N gauge loco I ever bought must have been about 1972/3,it never ran very well a lot of finger prodding to get it to move.

Mind you the weight of the white metal body might help,or on the other hand could burn the motor out.

Mike

BernardTPM · April 04, 2014, 11:09:45 PM

The second generation Farish N Gauge chassis, introduced with the Holden tank was and is awful and prone to failure when the dears on the layshaft split, always assuming the plastic clips that held the bits of chassis together hadn't broken first. The very first design in the original 94xx from 1971 was better, though sadly that was also changed over. You'll find the same awful design in early Halls and Spam Cans too.
Certainly not worth looking for one for the chassis.