How far can you stretch Rule 1?

[Bealman]

Hi Richey,

I personally think that is a great posting. Life throws all sorts of stuff at you, and somedays, I'm just glad to open me eyes, so being able to be a railway modeller is a bonus.

But I also like your maxim of running plausible trains. Let's face it - and I realised this on a recent UK and European trip - the countryside (not townscapes) hasn't changed all that much in the last 60 years, but the locos and trains have.

What I'm suggesting here is, that with a suitably non-descript and well modelled countryside landscape, you can run trains of any era through it. But - as you suggest - make them all authentic to the particular timeframe, with plausible train formations.

Cheers, George.

[Richey1977]

Quite.  I'm very strapped for MR time these days, and from the outset, I decided to cocentrate on scenery rather than trains or operation. Thinking back, I started out planning to make a static diorama, but then the MR bug set in, and you probably know what happens next... 

In fact, at one frustrating point where I was struggling with wiring etc, I nearly considered building a layout with no points, and aiming instead to build the most attractive layout I could, with just a circuit of track.  I've actually seen some very impressive layouts in this style.

But points and crossings are part of the scenery, so I just reduced them to a tasteful minimum, and saved my limited space for the landscape.  I've got no intention of building models from kits or scratch - I'm sold on what Graham Farish can achieve these days being good enough and attractive enough for me.  I don't mind kit models at all, but I wanted to save my 'modelling' time for buildings, scenery, and the stash of Airfix planes that are in the loft.

I also have something of a crush on Oxford Diecasts, but their models gravitate heavily back to the middle of the last century, so viewers of my layout (when complete) will have to work out for themselves why there's a British Railways Scamell Scarab within spitting distance of an EWS shunter.

I won't be exhibiting my layout as such.  I'm a sociable person, but some of the types I meet at MR exhibitions are downright rude.  If someone has spent hundreds or thousands of pounds and hours on a project and completed it, then congratulate them and take away the lessons of what works and doesn't.  Telling him that his trains are wrong, even for someone that might be a bit socially awkward, strikes me as unforgiveably rude.

[talisman56]

Funnily enough, I don't take the same approach to TV - I get quite annoyed with implausible or unlikely plots, but that's an aside.

I agree there, they're supposed to be professionals and are paid to do research on the subject. If their plot falls down because of the lack of a simple-to-check fact, shame on them...

[Agrippa]

Noted Richey's remarks with interest. If you accept Rule 1  then there are no limits to what you run on your layout , some members have mentioned running certain locos just because they liked a particular model which is as good as good a reason as any, running US , Japanese and continental stock on the same layout. At exhibitions I think it would be slightly different if a certain layout is on display you would expect the stock to be of the correct era, type, livery, consist etc  especially if a real location is being modelled. Whether you should tell the exhibitor there is an error I don't know if many people would do that, but they certainly shouldn't be rude. In the end it's up to you.

To me the only restriction on Rule 1 is cash!

[Richey1977]

Funnily enough, I don't take the same approach to TV - I get quite annoyed with implausible or unlikely plots, but that's an aside.

I agree there, they're supposed to be professionals and are paid to do research on the subject. If their plot falls down because of the lack of a simple-to-check fact, shame on them...

It's not so much a lack of research, just a reluctance to accept that life is actually a rather slow and prosaic process.  On TV, Police investigations are conducted with immense drama, often with stuff exploding, and no paperwork.  The last episode of The Bill I watched involved a skeleton being discovered after 20 years in the ground - a small team of PCs had it identified with a subject in custody within 24 hours.

And nobody in a drama programme EVER attempts recasautation (sp?).  They find a person dying, let him bleed out, then call the time of death.  Drives me mad, that does.

Eastenders and Coronation Street have all the ethnic diversity of an Eastbourne retirement home, which is strange, for programmes that supposed to reflect 'normal' neighbourhoods.

Anyway, I'm off-topic now.

[red_death]

If you accept Rule 1  then there are no limits to what you run on your layout , some members have mentioned running certain locos just because they liked a particular model which is as good as good a reason as any, running US , Japanese and continental stock on the same layout. At exhibitions I think it would be slightly different if a certain layout is on display you would expect the stock to be of the correct era, type, livery, consist etc  especially if a real location is being modelled. Whether you should tell the exhibitor there is an error I don't know if many people would do that, but they certainly shouldn't be rude. In the end it's up to you.

I completely agree with that.  What I (or anyone!) run on my layout/oval of track etc in my own home is nobody's business but mine.  I'm doing it for my personal enjoyment.

When it comes to exhibitions that balance changes slightly (not entirely) - it is not just the owner's/operator's enjoyment but also those of the public. So for me, a degree of realism on the stock (as well as the rest of layout) is important - that is the case whether I am viewing the layouts as a member of the public or with my exhibition managers hat on.

Cheers, Mike

[talisman56]

In terms of answering the thread title, "as far as you want to, and think you can get away with".

When at home, your world is your oyster, there's no-one around who can nay-say what you are running at that point in time: if you like it and enjoy seeing it run, all's well and good. There is no way I would run, for example, a Dapol 'Western' or a Farish 'Blue Pullman' on my layout if I exhibited it, as they would be completely at odds with the stated location and owning/running company, but they are such good models I am constantly fighting the little voice in my head saying, 'go on, buy one'...  Another aspect is that SWMBO has gotten used to the colour of the rolling stock and would instantly spot any interlopers 

Having not exhibited before, I would imagine in my instance that I would be very bored driving the same stuff around all day, so am toying with the idea of running 3 or 4 distinct periods in order and changing the stock to reflect those periods e.g. mid-30s (gotta use that 'Southern' M7 somehow), first half of 50s (Blood and Custard, anyone?) and mid-60s, to start with. Spend an hour or 90 minutes on each and then move on, in an 'exhibiting day' can get through the cycle twice. Go a long way to alleviating 'exhibitor boredom' and give the paying public something interesting to look at if they decide to pop back for another look later on...

I could imagine that the scenery and buildings would need to be fairly non-committal in terms of period, but as George said earlier, the scenery doesn't change, but the trains do. The only bugbear could be that someone spots the 'hot-dog' station signage while I was running the 30s, but ho-hum...

[red_death]

if I exhibited it, as they would be completely at odds with the stated location and owning/running company, but they are such good models I am constantly fighting the little voice in my head saying, 'go on, buy one'... 

I know exactly what you mean - the temptation to buy stuff because I like it rather than because I could ever conceivably need it is very strong! I've narrowed things down to 3 or 4 potential layouts which I might ever build (at least one means I need much more space - WCML!) and have tried to be much more disciplined at only buying things which fit the locations and eras I'm interested in, fortunately there is some overlap for most things, though I am not sure how I got to interest in mid-late 70s WR blue!

Having not exhibited before, I would imagine in my instance that I would be very bored driving the same stuff around all day, so am toying with the idea of running 3 or 4 distinct periods in order and changing the stock to reflect those periods e.g. mid-30s (gotta use that 'Southern' M7 somehow), first half of 50s (Blood and Custard, anyone?) and mid-60s, to start with. Spend an hour or 90 minutes on each and then move on, in an 'exhibiting day' can get through the cycle twice. Go a long way to alleviating 'exhibitor boredom' and give the paying public something interesting to look at if they decide to pop back for another look later on...

Quite often you will see layouts which run one era one day and a different one the next and that can be very effective. Exhibitor (and public) boredom can also depend on the layout design ie is it a roundy-roundy with trains going past or does it have more operational interest?

I could imagine that the scenery and buildings would need to be fairly non-committal in terms of period, but as George said earlier, the scenery doesn't change, but the trains do. The only bugbear could be that someone spots the 'hot-dog' station signage while I was running the 30s, but ho-hum...

Interchangeable signs? eg station signs with pins which slot into holes/tubes.  Vehicles can also be a bit of a givewaway.

Cheers, Mike

[silly moo]

I think that if you wanted to run a rule 1 layout at an exhibition all you would need to do is state somewhere that it was freelance.

Or do what one of my friends does when told that this, that or the other is wrong, he replies "I know" and leaves it at that.

I read on another forum that someone has built a Rivet Counter Detector Van, I've seen one that is an actual road vehicle and one that forms part of a train, I think they are both in 00 so we need a few N Gauge ones. 

[Chris in Prague]

I think that if you wanted to run a rule 1 layout at an exhibition all you would need to do is state somewhere that it was freelance.

Or do what one of my friends does when told that this, that or the other is wrong, he replies "I know" and leaves it at that.

I read on another forum that someone has built a Rivet Counter Detector Van, I've seen one that is an actual road vehicle and one that forms part of a train, I think they are both in 00 so we need a few N Gauge ones. 

Now, THAT is a great idea for the N Gauge Society to make as an exclusive model: a Rivet Counter Detector Van! 

[Chris in Prague]

My basic criteria are anything which ran somewhere in North Cornwall 1962 - 1969 or COULD have done as it was allocated nearby, e.g. at Exeter, Plymouth (SR and WR) so BR Green Class 03s and Class 04s can appear at Cant Cove and Penmayne. Or, I can makeup a believable scenario, like a WR Class 14 being loaned for PWM trains. I can stretch this further by having a scenario where the WR UPGRADED the Bodmin Road - Wadebridge - Padstow line to allow heavier locos. to run so they could run through trains off the WR mainline. Interestingly the WR DID lay new 109lb/yd flat-bottom rail on pre-stressed concrete sleepers on parts of the North Cornwall Line in 1963. I just imagine that they finished the process so i can run Class 42 Warships as well as Class 35 Hymeks (at least one made it to Bude and several appeared at Exmouth Jn. shed) and Class 22's. (I draw the line at scheduling heavier locos but will run a Class 52 and a Class 46 for my own pleasure; also Jubilee "Alberta" as it was an old schoolfriend's favourite loco. But nothing truly 'far out'!)

I also have the "Atlantic Coast Express" running (summer only) to the end of SR steam in 1967.

The GWS, in its early days, did have a presence at Bodmin General shed. (Alas, later demolished.) I've expanded the number of preserved (G)WR liveried locos and have a devolved local management (like Cornish Railways in late BR days) that allows 'plandampf' weekends where they run supported by the local council to increase tourism. (There is a complicated 'back story' which i won't go into here.)

I also have stock for the BR Blue / Speedlink period but, for now, only one BR Blue mainline loco. (a Class 37) for when i want to recreate the BR days i remember best. I do have a DB-fitted BR Blue Class 03 though to shunt the AB-fitted stock, including container wagons!

[5982]

Many of us follow the "it might have been" philosophy for the line we run - but rarely take this to its logical conclusion.

If our line had been built in the form we propose, what would have actually happened?

Put simply more of everything would have been required.

eg even if we have a simple single track, one-engine-in steam branch, that means there would have been one more locomotive on the companies stock. this could have been one that never appeared in our area, simply because allocations would have been different. It ay be that scrapping of a particular loco would have been delayed - so we can run it after its actual scrapping date. It might be that an extra loco would have been built in a particular class giving us a bit of a free hand.
Schedules for shopping for maintenance, modifications, repaints, etc would have worked out slightly differently - allowing us a loco in what is theoretically the "wrong" livery (either too old or too new) for our period.

If our system is a bit more extensive, it could even have led to one or two classes not normally seen in the area being allocated.

My Cambrian area layout could therefore see a "Dean Goods" a bit after the last one left the coast; I could draft in one or two "large prairies" to boost the small ones common in the area; I do't need to worry too much if every loco is in the right livery for 1960 (or whenever); I could claim that an extra "Manor" was built (there is a building near where I live called "Grange Manor"} - naming it after that would give rise to some fun with the rivet-counters!

And then of course there are other, wider questions ...
Would the incrase in traffic generated resulted in Barmouth (and the other) Bridge (and the others) being upgraded to "red" route status?
What would have appeared if diseasels moved onto the Cambrian before the hand-over to the Midland Region.

The list goes on ... even before we come to questions about excursions, diversions, etc, etc ...
I personally restrict Rule 1 to what I can justify ...

[Chris in Prague]

I think how far removed from the prototype one's layout goes is really a matter of individual comfort. All the points you raise are valid ones. I, also, restrict Rule 1 to what I can justify and does not look out-of-place.

I invented a complex back story to explain why Penmayne grew to be much bigger than Padstow to justify extra traffic and it staying open under the WR after Paddington took over the ex-SR lines. I began with WTTs for Padstow but then added summer extras based on those that ran to nearby Newquay in the same time period. I ended up with Penmayne - Wadebridge being one of the most intensively worked (at summer Saturdays) single-track lines! But, the timings are accurate and I do have a station with a long passing loop, Cant Cove, for trains to pass. All train formations were shortened but models of the same types of carriages used were bought and allocated to prototypical rakes.

I also read extensively about local railway history to understand how to realistically justify a line from Wadebridge to Penmayne being built and built earlier than the one to Padstow and being run jointly by the LSWR and GWR and their successors.

That said, operationally, as far as locomotives, rolling stock, and timetables, I have tried to stick as closely as possible to SR and WR operating practice in North Cornwall in the 1960s. Buildings and station layouts will also be based on real-life North Cornwall Railway prototypes and scenery will be based on Cornish prototypes found on the WWW.

[johnrobbo69]

Personally I like what I like and the devil if you don't. I currently run mainly BR green but if I want to stretch that I can imagine the green era is part of a preserved network and a more modern loco or an older one can quite happily run there as a visitor or tourist attraction.

I am literally miles away from even completing my scenery/buildings/road vehicles.......(or should that be from starting them) but in the unlikely event that anyone should come into my conservatory and criticise then they can find the door and I'll try not to lose any sleep over it.

One of my favourite sayings is that you should never put yourself down, there are plenty of people who will do that for you!

To echo other sentiments it's my railway and I'll do what I like with it! 

[Newportnobby]

Don't forget that in the 1950's - early 1970's (?) there were many specials run, especially football supporters trains (remember all those wrecked carriages ) and holiday excursion traffic so some locos could turn up in the most unlikely places