GWR Double Framed Locos

[GoesWhenReady]

A bit of a request, apologies if it's in the wrong category.

My searches for any model in N gauge have not brought up anything. My main quest is a double framed 4-4-0 from the GWR in N gauge (obviously). Great looking engines, would be a pleasure to have one on my proposed layout.

Among these is the more well known City of Truro, which hit over 100 MPH in 1904. But research revealed many other "double frame" engines hailing from the GWR, mainly 4-4-0s but one 2-6-0 also turned up. Aside from Truro and an Earl, all were scrapped.

Nothing from the RTR side.

Are (were) any kits made of these engines? I don't want to give up the ghost, but it's looked bleak so far.

Photo reference of a few classes:
Flower: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh58.htm
Duke: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt339.htm
City: http://www.freefoto.com/preview/36-04-1/GWR-City-4-4-0-3440-City-of-Truro
Aberdare 2-6-0: http://www.swindonviewpoint.com/content/gwr-locomotive-aberdare-class

[johnlambert]

I can't help you but I have always wondered why they were referred to as Double Framed.

[keithfre]

First time I've heard "double-framed". I've always seen them referred to as "outside-frame".

[EtchedPixels]

Double framed means there are frames both inside and outside of the wheels. Outside frames there are frames outside, inside frames there are frames inside.

The term "sandwich frame" is also sometimes used.

I've looked at doing a couple of outside frame locos but the problem is the wheels and the like. The only off the shelf outside framed wheels and rods are the Farish class 08. The 08 wheel diameter doesn't suit much steamy stuff.

That means any build is going to involve some fairly complicated work putting Farish wheels on longer axles with cranks on the end. Not impossible but not exactly easy either.

Alan

[BernardTPM]

In the years leading up to the abandonment of Broad gauge a number of 'convertible' lcos were built with double frames the idea being that the borad gauge wheels ran on the outside of the outer frames but, when converted, the Standard Gauge wheels would sit between the inner and outer frames.
The Cl.08 wheels might suit some of the outside frames Saddle tanks and early panniers. For larger wheels it's a matter of keeping fingers crossed that the 'City' class is eventually done in N too.

[EtchedPixels]

An Armstrong 927 Coal Goods would be fun given its association with Wales and 4'6" wheels. Other candidates would be a 1076 class (which did manage to make 1946!) or the outside frame Dean Goods (the 2361s). I do think you could do the Aberdare with class 08 wheels but I'm not sure you'd be able to use much else of it except the wheels, so barring a supply of dud 08s (which there seems not to be) it might be a pricy project.

I do have the drawings for the Dean Singles (Lord of the Isles etc) and the unrebuilt 2-2-2 versions of the locos. That's one way to dodge the main issue although it still needs a spot of cheating on the wheels (3mm scale wheels to NMRA spec with a bit of regauging should work and not look too obviously wrong). I'm mainly stumped on how to motorise such a beast give the clear space under the tender and the single locomotive driving wheels.

[zwilnik]

As far as motorisation is concerned, you could always do like the Kato "Chibi" train and stick the motor in the first coach or truck. It would stop you travelling light engine of course.

[GoesWhenReady]

Thank you all for the replies. I merely use the term "Double Frame" from a GWR modelling site - never heard of "sandwich frames" before!

I had planned to go with the Aberdare 2-6-0, largely as it's a fairly basic design besides the double frames and cranks - it also has a flat footplate, which negates the more complex frame structure other Churchward/Dean designs used and subsequently looks more suit to begin with.

My plan was to construct the main loco body out of plastikard or similar substance, then mounted on a chassis. I agree the Class 08's wheels look suit as far as diameter goes, however the chassis they use looks a pinch short - so all I'd need is the wheels and cranks. I'd prefer sourcing 08 wheels with cracks instead of tearing apart a new 08. I recall GF used to make chassis alone for these sorts of projects.

I'm not fussed on RTR locos versus kitbashing - all I care is having a nice double framed loco to adorn my layout! I suppose if Bachmann/Farish turns out any double framed loco, then my plans would be called off - but it still would make for an exercise in kitbashing, and I doubt they will release the Aberdare in particular.

The Aberdare is more or less a freight version of the "City" and related 4-4-0s.
First built in 1901, they lasted until the late 1940s.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/2-6-0_GWR_Aberdare_Official_Photo.jpg

[EtchedPixels]

instead of tearing apart a new 08. I recall GF used to make chassis alone for these sorts of projects.

Poole yes  - Bachmann no. Ask Bachmann anything about parts as a kit maker and you get the "we don't make parts for other people" line. They don't provide bogies in N even (although they do in OO). You may be able to get the bits for a one off by asking BR Lines and the like.

Dapol maybe - Farish no.

Or you could succumb to the lure of fine scale where all the bits for scratchbuilding including nice 2fs wheels are available. Certainly as it stands if you plan to scratchbuild locos 2fs is what is set up for it. It kind of makes sense - if you are going to spend ages building a beautiful and unique model why botch it with foot wide fat wheels and an 8" track gauge error 


Unfortunately  the 08 seems to be very reliable. I've been after a dud one for a class 13 project for ages, and there are not a lot about.

Alan

[BernardTPM]

BR Lines list the wheelset fo the new Cl.08 but it's currently marked out of stock. You might be able to use the motor and could probably sell the spare body...

[johnlambert]

Am I right in thinking all the double framed GWR locos were withdrawn before nationalisation? 

I'd quite like one but imagine it might be difficult to build one in N gauge without it ending up far too wide across the crank pins.

[thebrighton]

BR Lines list the wheelset fo the new Cl.08 but it's currently marked out of stock. You might be able to use the motor and could probably sell the spare body...

I got a set from BR Lines recently despite the website saying out of stock. IIRC this refers to that particular colour coupling rods as he had other colours available.
Gareth

[EtchedPixels]

Am I right in thinking all the double framed GWR locos were withdrawn before nationalisation? 

I'd quite like one but imagine it might be difficult to build one in N gauge without it ending up far too wide across the crank pins.

You can get a good deal narrower than the Farish 08 even as the 08 was produced, and narrower still with etched frames.

Geometry wise you've got a 7.62mm back to back or thereabouts plus 2.2mm for each wheel thickness (due to the big fat N wheels) but you are 0.6mm to the better due to the gauge error.

So you are at 12mm (6ft) plus frames plus cranks.

I guess 1mm each side for wheel clearance and play puts you at 7ft

plus etched frames (or just cut from brass) puts you about another scale 6" out

So 7'6 + cranks - not too dire IMHO.

The 08 is quite fat because there is way more play than needed and the rods are way too far out - but I don't think it looks too bad even so.

Alan

[GoesWhenReady]

instead of tearing apart a new 08. I recall GF used to make chassis alone for these sorts of projects.

Poole yes  - Bachmann no. Ask Bachmann anything about parts as a kit maker and you get the "we don't make parts for other people" line. They don't provide bogies in N even (although they do in OO). You may be able to get the bits for a one off by asking BR Lines and the like.

Dapol maybe - Farish no.

Or you could succumb to the lure of fine scale where all the bits for scratchbuilding including nice 2fs wheels are available. Certainly as it stands if you plan to scratchbuild locos 2fs is what is set up for it. It kind of makes sense - if you are going to spend ages building a beautiful and unique model why botch it with foot wide fat wheels and an 8" track gauge error 


Unfortunately  the 08 seems to be very reliable. I've been after a dud one for a class 13 project for ages, and there are not a lot about.

Alan

I looked up BR Lines - they showed the 08 wheels I wanted, but as noted they're out of stock at this time.
Fine scale wheels - an intriguing idea. It largely comes down to which wheels will suit - I don't mind giving a try at building the crank sections myself, though my proposed plans are less than maintenance friendly. 

Am I right in thinking all the double framed GWR locos were withdrawn before nationalisation? 

I'd quite like one but imagine it might be difficult to build one in N gauge without it ending up far too wide across the crank pins.

Most of the GWR's double frame locos were withdrawn before nationalization, though a few made it into the early 1950s. The last Aberdare 2-6-0 went out in 1948, however.

Yes, the cranks being too wide is probably the only real concern. The main snag is getting the cranks clear of the double frames without jutting out too much - I did track down a good drawing of the Aberdare, which is proving to be a big help in planning the model.