Another which Loco....

[ScottyStitch]

I'm envisaging a couple of special trains (football, races, etc.)for my in-planning early-mid sixties Scottish layout, one each from the southern region and one from the western, with their associated colloquially coloured rakes. Assuming these trains would come to Perth without changing motive power, which locos could have made the run?

Western region, I'm not aware that the Westerns or Warships ever ventured that far from their home turf.

Southern Region, due to it's nature, other than the Light Pacifics I can't think of anything else available that would make the long haul. Class 33s?

Only other thing I can think of is an engine change to a Peak or something at Crewe or similar.......

Any thoughts?

ScottyStitch

[port perran]

I travelled on a few soccer specials in the late 60s /early 70s from Bristol to places such as Leeds/Sheffield and even the far North East.etc. Usually, if memory serves me correctly, headed by class 45s (Peaks).
I also believe that when Bristol City played away (and beat) the then Mighty Leeds at Elland Rd in, I think, 1973, the club tried to hire a blue Pullman. I'm also think that it actually happened. I travelled that day on one of 5 specials hauled by a class 47 as far as I can remember.
I believe also that a football special ran from Bristol to Edinburgh in about 1982 for an Anglo-Scottish Cup Tie (v Hibernian).
As for late 60s I can only hazard a guess that if a train ran from old WR territory (eg Bristol) to Scotland it would likely have changed locos around Sheffield. Possibly peaks from Bristol ?

[EtchedPixels]

I'm envisaging a couple of special trains (football, races, etc.)for my in-planning early-mid sixties Scottish layout, one each from the southern region and one from the western, with their associated colloquially coloured rakes. Assuming these trains would come to Perth without changing motive power, which locos could have made the run?

Basically I think the answer is mostly "it wouldn't happen"

You need a loco that is ok for the route, you need a crew that are passed for the route and the locomotive. You need to get all of said crews, locos and bits back where they should be

Coaches yes (but only those suitable for cross region running - mostly Mark1 stock by the late 1960s) but locos would be odd unless something went wrong on the way - instead there would be engine and crew changes.

Southern to Perth for example I imagine would have seen a change in the London area, and then ECML haulage so perhaps a Deltic all the way to Perth (probably with a crew change at one of the obvious boundaries like York)

[4x2]

45's and 47's are most likely, that said I stewarded on a special to Wembley when Bristol Rovers were in the league play offs (vs Tranmere in 1997 I think) and that was hauled by a 37 working hard all the way - it was awesome !

I would of thought that specials like that could of been steam hauled in the mid sixties, except for the western region  as steam had mostly gone by then... The Westerns were seen as far as Crewe so maybe could have sneaked further north... (rule 1 works here  ) The coaches would have been of 'lesser quality' for footie trains and probably a right old mishmash of colours and type, put it this way would you allow your good revenue earning stock to get wrecked in one day ?

[ScottyStitch]

Thank you both for your input.

EP, I had of course naively failed to consider route knowledge of the drivers.

I will assemble the regional rolling stock and attach conventional east and west coast motive power.

[ScottyStitch]

Further to the above, I have just recently obtained a copy of O S Nock and Derek Cross' book, Main Lines Across The Borders. And there on page 39, is a lovely picture of rebuilt Merchant Navy 35012 Clan Line, climbing Shap on a special from Leeds to Penrith, June 1964.

That's good enough for me. One of either Dapol or Farish's Light Pacific's will be making a special visit to Perth.

[scruff]

Don't forget the Loco exchanges.. maybe they were more successful than BR hoped and they shedded a few at perth... rule one!

Cheers
Mark

[Chris in Prague]

Double-headed Class 33s (as they became) regularly reached York (I think) on block cement trains from the SR (Uddingstone?) in the early 1960s. SR steam locos (Bulleid Pacifics) worked as far as Oxford and, on football specials, to Birmingham. WR steam locos. may well have been 'out of gauge' off the WR and former GCR. From around the mid-1960s, WR diesel hydraulics were banned from working off the WR as other regions were only used to dealing with diesel electrics. That's why Bristol Bath Road got an allocation of Peaks early on and, later, the WR got what became Class 47s. So, if your special is off the WR it would, most likely, have a Class 45 or Class 47. If it's off the SR it would most likely change locos., as Alan, says in the London area. On a school trip, I remember our maroon Warship being exchanged for a dirty Bulleid Pacific to take us to Portsmouth, however, I cannot remember where the changeover took place.

[Roy L S]

Double-headed Class 33s (as they became) regularly reached York (I think) on block cement trains from the SR (Uddingstone?) in the early 1960s. SR steam locos (Bulleid Pacifics) worked as far as Oxford and, on football specials, to Birmingham. WR steam locos. may well have been 'out of gauge' off the WR and former GCR. From around the mid-1960s, WR diesel hydraulics were banned from working off the WR as other regions were only used to dealing with diesel electrics. That's why Bristol Bath Road got an allocation of Peaks early on and, later, the WR got what became Class 47s. So, if your special is off the WR it would, most likely, have a Class 45 or Class 47. If it's off the SR it would most likely change locos., as Alan, says in the London area. On a school trip, I remember our maroon Warship being exchanged for a dirty Bulleid Pacific to take us to Portsmouth, however, I cannot remember where the changeover took place.

As far as the GC was concerned Granges and Halls could fairly often be seen as far north as Leicester Central  (where locos would be changed) on cross-country services via Banbury and Woodford Halse, and occasionally they even beyond.

Regards

Roy

[gc4946]

If it's early to mid-60s then steam traction could also be used, perhaps a "rare" LM, NE or Eastern Region loco.

e.g. a special from the Southern Region could have had a Willesden based Black 5 which took over to/from London (did happen on some football specials) or from the Western Region, a Bristol-based Jubilee (such as 45690 Leander or 45699 Galatea)

[kesdrive]

There is photographic evidence on Rail-Online website of Western diesels hauling coal from South Wales to Corby on the Midland Main line.
I think Western diesel power was used to haul a football special from Swindon to Peterborough in around 1964. Seems anything goes.


Chris

[Les1952]

On WR locos travelling up the GC.

It was regular but not frequent for them to get as far as Nottingham on passenger or Annesley on goods.  It was very uncommon to get as far as Sheffield, though it did happen from time to time.

However on ONE occasion a Grange worked to Sheffield because the relieving loco had failed, and control at Sheffield were caught on the hop.  No loco available. The relieving driver was quite happy to take on a strange engine, so off it went in the Leeds direction, only to be taken off at Huddersfield after taking chunks out of the platform at Darley Dale.  The loco was photographed on Huddersfield shed whilst Authority tried to work out how to get it back home again..

Pic and info in a Steam Days or BRILL Mag- I think it was a wooden platform at Darley Dale but my memory might not be accurate in that single respect.

All the very best
Les

[johnlambert]

On WR locos travelling up the GC.

It was regular but not frequent for them to get as far as Nottingham on passenger or Annesley on goods.  It was very uncommon to get as far as Sheffield, though it did happen from time to time.

However on ONE occasion a Grange worked to Sheffield because the relieving loco had failed, and control at Sheffield were caught on the hop.  No loco available. The relieving driver was quite happy to take on a strange engine, so off it went in the Leeds direction, only to be taken off at Huddersfield after taking chunks out of the platform at Darley Dale.  The loco was photographed on Huddersfield shed whilst Authority tried to work out how to get it back home again..

Pic and info in a Steam Days or BRILL Mag- I think it was a wooden platform at Darley Dale but my memory might not be accurate in that single respect.

All the very best
Les

Didn't something similar happen with a Hall that turned up at Kensington Olympia (or, possibly, further South)

[port perran]

I can certainly confirm the story of the Grange getting to Huddersfield. I have some pictures in one of my books but can't remember which one.
I believe it remained dumped at the back of the shed for a week before it returned South (dead engine I believe).

[Deltic9001]

Hi,

Class 52 Westerns reached Leeds and York on railtours at the end of 1976 and start of 1977 but one did reach Leeds on an ordinary passenger service around then too.

I've been unable to locate the working using the internet but I'm fairly sure one of my many books has a photograph of the train approaching Leeds.

Regards,
Andy Hoskins