DJ models - Dave Jones new venture

[Sprintex]

dim products

Bit harsh isn't it?


Paul

[daveg]

Kernow Model Centre appear to be taking pre orders for DJM Locos and at a discount to prices announced by Dave.

Ray

I asked hattons via their online chat and the sales person knew nothing of hattons stocking dim products at that stage. Looks like kernows have got the jump on them
Bart

Interesting that. A posting by Dave Jones dated 11 September on the DJM site is indicating that distributors have yet to be appointed.

Dave G

[MikeDunn]

What about actually manufacturing the loco with a speaker built in. The speaker itself is really very cheap, less than a fiver

And anyone buying one has to pay for it regardless of whether they want sound or not !

I would prefer that the space be designed in, and maybe a speaker-installed version could be available at the uplifted price; that way, only those wanting sound get it and the rest of us pay less.  Unless the actual uplift (based on quantity purchase) would be something like 50p ...

Mike

[red_death]

And anyone buying one has to pay for it regardless of whether they want sound or not !

I would prefer that the space be designed in, and maybe a speaker-installed version could be available at the uplifted price; that way, only those wanting sound get it and the rest of us pay less.  Unless the actual uplift (based on quantity purchase) would be something like 50p ...

We have this type of argument presented every time a manufacturer adds new features - whether it be finer detail, lights, DCC provision.  As Kirky said adding a built in speaker should cost no more than £5 (and probably less). It probably isn't far off the point where it becomes more expensive to tool two different PCBs ie with/without speaker than to just do one with the speaker, but that is a decision for Dave.

In feature terms it is actually much smarter than offering sound pre-installed and offers another advantage over OO ie it helps make the scale more attractive.

The only thing to be careful of is speaker types - the old ESU Loksound v3.5 used 100 ohm speakers, fortunately the new v4 plus Zimo and CT decoders use 4 or 8 ohm speakers.

Cheers, Mike

[MikeDunn]

We have this type of argument presented every time a manufacturer adds new features

Agreed - but some new features are pretty cheap whereas others are measured in multiple pounds ...

It probably isn't far off the point where it becomes more expensive to tool two different PCBs ie with/without speaker than to just do one with the speaker

But that isn't what was being discussed - the inclusion of a speaker was what I was replying to ...  There will be no cost difference to the moulding as it will be the same. 

Regarding designing PCBs (something I play around with at the moment, as it happens), I see no reason why it will be a lot more to include the (relatively minor) changes needed to include the traces needed to wire a speaker onto the main board ...  The price difference for the board I'm working on currently compared to the original one I started with is maybe 30 pence to handle the additional component traces.  And the future system that this will become will have many other changes in it - but I'm not expecting the PCB price to vary by more than £1.  PCBs are pretty cheap - more so than I had thought prior to my investigations (£77.37 for 50, or £1.50 each); how much more going SMD will be - now that's something that currently I don't know, but will (as I am aiming to have SMD for everything I can, pre-assembled at the factory, with only my PIC being added by me); hopefully it will be similar, as SMD will allow me to get the board smaller.

In feature terms it is actually much smarter than offering sound pre-installed and offers another advantage over OO ie it helps make the scale more attractive.

But it's still an extra expense that the majority of N gauge modellers don't want ...  As I said, having the space already in place for the speaker is a great idea; one that is happening more & more in OO.

Mike

[EtchedPixels]

You "only" need to do something like have the weight blocks cast as two one of which happens to be a bit over speaker size. Bachmann do something similar with the decoder space on the 101 and 108 but with a plastic frame for some reason.

As to what is smart, if I was in the production business I'd be looking at providing 'sound fitted' locos a shade under the conversion prices. and if I was a committed capitalist I'd probably also cast two different weight blocks and ensure the one with the speaker slot only appeared in the locos pre-fitted for sound.

kerching 

Alan

[red_death]

But that isn't what was being discussed - the inclusion of a speaker was what I was replying to ...  There will be no cost difference to the moulding as it will be the same. 

Regarding designing PCBs (something I play around with at the moment, as it happens), I see no reason why it will be a lot more to include the (relatively minor) changes needed to include the traces needed to wire a speaker onto the main board ... 

I wasn't talking about the moulding - I was talking about the additional cost of designing, manufacturing and stocking of two PCBs.  Even if the actual cost of the PCB is the same and the changes are pretty minimal (which they would be) you still have to design and work on two different manufacturing processes.  My point was that any cost saving you might get from not having a speaker fitted might well be lost in additional cost of design/manufacturer of a second variant.

I'm sure that the cost of doing a second PCB variant wouldn't actually equal the cost of a speaker, but is the price point so sensitive that £5 will make the difference?

My other point was here was an opportunity to do more/better than the current OO market does.

Cheers, Mike

[Agrippa]

I'm lost.... . Easier to follow a Midsomer Murders plot than this thread.

[Michael Shillabeer]

But it's still an extra expense that the majority of N gauge modellers don't want ...  As I said, having the space already in place for the speaker is a great idea; one that is happening more & more in OO.

Mike

Haven't sales of Peco's Collet loco suffered because they only sell it with DCC already fitted?

Michael

[steam-driven boy]

Hi,

You "only" need to do something like have the weight blocks cast as two one of which happens to be a bit over speaker size. Bachmann do something similar with the decoder space on the 101 and 108 but with a plastic frame for some reason.
...

I do like the 'sound' of that, I'm not overly sold on this notion of enforced onboard speakers - even if it's a relatively smaller financial 'hit' for those of us unconvinced.
There's a good deal more 'volume' available inside a OO shell to accept the potential loss in adhesive weight, I'd be concerned about that in N - was there not some dissatisfaction when Class 66s and Class 73s suffered weight loss from making latter issues 'DCC Ready'?
Again, Okay in larger American prototypes - if I could afford them 

Regards, Gerry 

[red_death]

There's a good deal more 'volume' available inside a OO shell to accept the potential loss in adhesive weight, I'd be concerned about that in N - was there not some dissatisfaction when Class 66s and Class 73s suffered weight loss from making latter issues 'DCC Ready'?

The later 66s and 73s used a plastic chassis rather than a metal one, but it didn't have to be like that to fit in a DCC socket (as Farish prove).

Cheers, Mike

[steam-driven boy]

Hi,

There's a good deal more 'volume' available inside a OO shell to accept the potential loss in adhesive weight, I'd be concerned about that in N - was there not some dissatisfaction when Class 66s and Class 73s suffered weight loss from making latter issues 'DCC Ready'?

The later 66s and 73s used a plastic chassis rather than a metal one, but it didn't have to be like that to fit in a DCC socket (as Farish prove).

Cheers, Mike

But would not a worthwhile sized speaker take up a proportionately greater space?  And what of smaller prototypes?

Regards, Gerry 

[PaulCheffus]

Hi,

There's a good deal more 'volume' available inside a OO shell to accept the potential loss in adhesive weight, I'd be concerned about that in N - was there not some dissatisfaction when Class 66s and Class 73s suffered weight loss from making latter issues 'DCC Ready'?

The later 66s and 73s used a plastic chassis rather than a metal one, but it didn't have to be like that to fit in a DCC socket (as Farish prove).

Cheers, Mike

But would not a worthwhile sized speaker take up a proportionately greater space?  And what of smaller prototypes?

Regards, Gerry 

Hi

That would just be the same as the current 03 / 08 /14 none of which are DCC ready and don't have a socket so realistically wouldn't have the speaker either.

Cheers

Paul

[steam-driven boy]

Hi Paul,

Hi,

There's a good deal more 'volume' available inside a OO shell to accept the potential loss in adhesive weight, I'd be concerned about that in N - was there not some dissatisfaction when Class 66s and Class 73s suffered weight loss from making latter issues 'DCC Ready'?

The later 66s and 73s used a plastic chassis rather than a metal one, but it didn't have to be like that to fit in a DCC socket (as Farish prove).

Cheers, Mike

But would not a worthwhile sized speaker take up a proportionately greater space?  And what of smaller prototypes?

Regards, Gerry 

Hi

That would just be the same as the current 03 / 08 /14 none of which are DCC ready and don't have a socket so realistically wouldn't have the speaker either.

Cheers

Paul

Even more of a reason, for me anyway, why the Etched Pixels option makes so much sense, if you can't have universal sound on all loco's on the layout...

Regards, Gerry 

[red_death]

But would not a worthwhile sized speaker take up a proportionately greater space?  And what of smaller prototypes?

Hi Gerry

Proportionately more than what? The point about the later 66s and 73s was that space wasn't the issue (there is space) but that the materials used and design were completely different to the earlier models.  If they had adopted the Farish solution of metal block with PCB incl socket Dapol could have had the best of both worlds ie DCC provision and mass.

Similarly fitting a speaker just needs a bit of pre-planning. Some of the sugar cube speakers are excellent and wouldn't take much space at all.

For smaller locos it may not be possible to fit a speaker in and have sufficient weight but I wouldn't bet on it! After all we are looking for ideas which are innovative and will help attract sales for Dave and make N more attractive.

Cheers, Mike