Quote from: NeMo on August 08, 2025, 10:28:00 AM

Quote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 07:56:11 PMI'm not convinced.

Indeed, and I understand your points entirely. But my concern is that the UK N scale hobby is looking at a declining market and ageing demographic, and responding, like Ned Flanders' dad, with 'We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas'. They seem to be doing the same thing over and over and over: transition-era steam and diesel for the nostalgic modeller who grew up back then, and a sprinkling of super-high detail (often semi-permanently coupled) models of those with deep pockets and big houses.

Britain is struggling with the vast difference in lived experiences between those in their teens and 20s compared with those in their 60s and 70s. The country feels very different to those two demographics. The industry doesn't seem to have adapted to that. It focuses on the one, but has (as far as I can tell) absolutely no idea how to engage with the other.

My fervent wish isn't for a 'Railroad' 66 to cannibalise sales of the high-end ones from Dapol or Farish, but an enterprising company to sell 'Railroad' sets containing a basic 66 and a few wagons to children and teenagers who couldn't afford the Dapol or Farish ones. My observation of the Japanese models is that it's perfectly possible to make models that are dimensionally correct but have economies made in terms of fitted details. Where UK modellers expect their locos to have all the bits fitted already, Japanese modellers are used to fitting those details themselves, or else having them moulded to cut costs.

I admit, that unlike Ben I don't have any skin in the game. So, I may need to content myself with watching the UK N scale marketplace get smaller and older as the years pass. I know a handful of children and teenagers with model trains: not one of them models in N scale. Part of that is that they simply didn't know it existed, and when they got 'into trains', their families bought them Hornby stuff that was sold in toy shops or from Argos.

Cheers, NeMo

It is perhaps worth remembering that the majority (if not all) of the Hornby "Railroad" range has it's origins in older tooling from a variety of origins including Lima. This tooling will have originally have been for "main" range models in years gone by and the cost of it amortised long ago. With only minor upgrades such as a better motor bogie, DCC interface and in some cases fitting for rudimentary sound, the long paid for tooling gives Hornby the means to facilitate a cheaper range of models by "sweating" otherwise redundant assets.

In OO there is the critical mass to support the "cheap" Railroad range alongside their main super-detailed models as the Market is four or five times bigger than N, whereas in the smaller scale there is a risk it would divide the market for a given model rendering neither viable.

The 66 is possibly an exception, I re-watched N Gauge News's interview from Bachmann's Richard Proudman last year just yesterday, and when asked about duplication, his view was that the 66 is probably only one of a few locos in N with a large enough Market to make two models viable.

So maybe the answer is to test the water with one basic model/set? However as people will expect lights, a DCC interface and at least some provision for sound, even with simpler body tooling and (say) a largely clip together chassis that might save a few pence on assembly, for a given volume of models and remembering Ben's comments that volume is key to bringing down price, are there actually significant savings to be made doing that?

It is true that N is not targeted at the "toy" end of model railways, based on demand, manufacturers are producing ever more detailed and technically sophisticated models, and more than ever are being produced in British N by a range of manufacturers that is greater than it has ever been in the past. I am of the strong belief that it is not that the Market is shrinking, rather that supply and choice is increasing faster than the Market can grow.

Roy

Quote from: JimSan on August 07, 2025, 10:08:45 PM

Quote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 07:56:11 PMHave you seen how much games consoles (and games) are? Price is not a barrier to entry for younger people in any meaningful sense IMO.

As someone who keeps up with the gaming news, there's more of a shift of gamers going towards cheaper and older games as of late, mostly due the Triple A gaming industry continues to pump out sub-par products that cost far too much and have micro-transactions designed to drain your bank balance.

It's something around 70+% of PC gamers playing games older than 6 years, and the most successful games as of late have been the more affordable independently developed games around the £20-40 price range, even some around £10 becoming quite popular as well.

Then there's the frequent seasonal sales as well when you can pick up something which use to be £60 at less than £10, outside of the whales and the "MUST HAVE" titles, gamers will wait for a sale to buy something.

That's interesting. My (wholly anecdotal) understanding is that PC gaming is more common among adults, whilst consoles are more used by the 'younger generation'. PC gaming has the potential to be far more expensive after all. I'm not surprised about a backlash against micro-transactions!

Quote from: NeMo on August 08, 2025, 10:28:00 AM

Quote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 07:56:11 PMI'm not convinced.

Indeed, and I understand your points entirely. But my concern is that the UK N scale hobby is looking at a declining market and ageing demographic, and responding, like Ned Flanders' dad, with 'We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas'. They seem to be doing the same thing over and over and over: transition-era steam and diesel for the nostalgic modeller who grew up back then, and a sprinkling of super-high detail (often semi-permanently coupled) models of those with deep pockets and big houses.

Britain is struggling with the vast difference in lived experiences between those in their teens and 20s compared with those in their 60s and 70s. The country feels very different to those two demographics. The industry doesn't seem to have adapted to that. It focuses on the one, but has (as far as I can tell) absolutely no idea how to engage with the other.

My fervent wish isn't for a 'Railroad' 66 to cannibalise sales of the high-end ones from Dapol or Farish, but an enterprising company to sell 'Railroad' sets containing a basic 66 and a few wagons to children and teenagers who couldn't afford the Dapol or Farish ones. My observation of the Japanese models is that it's perfectly possible to make models that are dimensionally correct but have economies made in terms of fitted details. Where UK modellers expect their locos to have all the bits fitted already, Japanese modellers are used to fitting those details themselves, or else having them moulded to cut costs.

I admit, that unlike Ben I don't have any skin in the game. So, I may need to content myself with watching the UK N scale marketplace get smaller and older as the years pass. I know a handful of children and teenagers with model trains: not one of them models in N scale. Part of that is that they simply didn't know it existed, and when they got 'into trains', their families bought them Hornby stuff that was sold in toy shops or from Argos.

Cheers, NeMo

There's a lot to unpack there. Whilst I accept Ben is not wholly disinterested in this discussion, I think his point is very pertinent. You're still suggesting that Japanese models are cheaper because of more moulded parts and therefore simpler tooling. Whilst that will definitely be a factor, the biggest one, given tooling cost is fixed, is that they make far larger batches. Double the batch size, half the fixed unit costs. 10x the batch, and 1/10 the cost. Therefore surely the biggest factor by far is finding those people who want to buy a low-detail 66 and some wagons? Dimensional accuracy is a red herring, it costs no more to make an 'accurate' loco than an inaccurate one, save for a tiny investment in research.

I am not convinced by the health of UK N gauge presently, but I don't ascribe this to an ageing membership base. Many new releases seem to end up in the bargain bins (Farish 90s, 319s, Dapol 59s), and that becomes a vicious circle; "I won't pay full price now, I'll wait 6 months until it's cheap...". The new models from the established brands don't seem to be racing through; no seen decorated samples of 66s from Dapol, the 87 is still a way off, the BoB/WC was re-started and slated for Q3 25 delivery and again, no decorated samples are there? Every quarter the hopes are high for new Farish models and we get an NER coal wagon, which I'm sure someone is excited about, somewhere. Interestingly Stephen McCarron (MD of Accurascale) stated on Facebook this week that the UK N gauge market has 'declined to roughly 5% of the market'. He didn't cite sources, and ultimately he's invested in the OO gauge market, so that narrative suits, whether true or not.

Maybe cost of living is a factor. That's pretty acute right now, but that won't be affecting N gauge exclusively.

My arc is probably very typical, my dad had N gauge in the in the early 90s, I had OO gauge. I drifted away from it when I was 12-13, and got back into trains about 10 years ago in my 20s when I had my own place. I'm not sure you can fight that.

My (8 year old) son is train mad. He has N gauge, mainly so he can use my stock! I never really gave him a say in this, when he wanted a 'trainset' I built him one with Unitrack, because I didn't want to buy him OO! I fully expect him to drift away as I did, and to hopefully come back in due course. In his class at school I know of one other child who has a small amount of OO, and one other who 'likes' trains (insofar as he knows he goes on an Azuma to visit family and that 'our' trains are Electrostars). Price isn't a barrier; many of them have games consoles, mufti-day sees a sea of the very latest football kits being worn etc. This is a village school in an affluent area of Sussex. Trains just aren't appealing, and I'm not sure that anything specifically aimed at enticing the younger generation will be effective, it's still trains. You can control them with tablets and phones. There are games like Train Sim World out there which blend trains and gaming, but I don't see them being played either.

I think it's unfair to say 'manufacturers simply aren't trying', nor do I think their inaction is actively hurting the hobby (whether you infer from that "N gauge" or "model railways" the point still stands). It's simply an immutable truth that model railways are a hobby dominated by older people with the time and dispoable income.

IMO

Quote from: NeMo on August 08, 2025, 10:28:00 AMSo, I may need to content myself with watching the UK N scale marketplace get smaller and older as the years pass.

Have you any empirical evidence to support that assertion (that the British marketplace is getting smaller)?

My understanding is that the current thinking and claims, often from national press and news/media reports (although probably mostly conjecture), is that hobbies, including railway modelling, are enjoying a revival and are growing following claims a few years ago that railway modelling was dead (or dying).

Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMTherefore surely the biggest factor by far is finding those people who want to buy a low-detail 66 and some wagons? Dimensional accuracy is a red herring, it costs no more to make an 'accurate' loco than an inaccurate one, save for a tiny investment in research.

Agreed, but my argument is more about, say, if Farish dusted off an old Poole-era model or deliberately created a new moulding that was poor (to avoid competing with their higher-end model) we'd get nowhere. So, just to be clear, what I'm advocating is a good model with moulded details, so the expense of separately fitted details or complex liveries can be avoided.

Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMI am not convinced by the health of UK N gauge presently, but I don't ascribe this to an ageing membership base.

I'm not convinced either, but I would be happy to be persuaded the average age of the railway modeller is no higher than it was 40 years ago. But an amble around TINGS doesn't fill me with confidence on that front.

Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMMany new releases seem to end up in the bargain bins (Farish 90s, 319s, Dapol 59s), and that becomes a vicious circle; "I won't pay full price now, I'll wait 6 months until it's cheap...".

Indeed, but I'll add a couple of other observations. Firstly, you rarely see the transition-era stuff discounted so deeply. BR steam seems to sell well. I know the argument that the transition-era is the best of all worlds, but I think some of it is nostalgia-driven, indicating the age of the modeller. Secondly, a lot of Bachmann's recent stuff has just been too expensive to sell quickly in large batches. I just don't think the market for modern image EMUs and whatnot is as big as Bachmann think it is; at least, not at the prices/features they're retailing their models at.

Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMInterestingly Stephen McCarron (MD of Accurascale) stated on Facebook this week that the UK N gauge market has 'declined to roughly 5% of the market'. He didn't cite sources, and ultimately he's invested in the OO gauge market, so that narrative suits, whether true or not.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. I'd be interested to know if TT:120 has cannibalised the N scale market at all. I know that was a fear when it was announced. Presumably, only Hornby know how quickly that market has grown.

Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMMaybe cost of living is a factor. That's pretty acute right now, but that won't be affecting N gauge exclusively.

True, but the way you handle price-sensitive shoppers isn't to ignore them, which is what, I think, the N scale hobby has been doing. Ben pointed out that 'starter set' from Gaugemaster, but of course, that uses a (completely fictional) Kato locomotive! Why haven't Dapol or Farish done something similar using one of their Pannier tanks or something? Because their locos are too expensive for a cheap starter set, that's why. Ah, but we don't have the volumes here to make the cost of basic Pannier under £50 says Bachmann! Well, no, and you never will if you don't grow the market. It's a vicious circle. I wonder if something of the Gillette approach is needed here: all but give away the starter loco, and make the profit on the extras the modeller buys after that initial purchase.

Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMMy arc is probably very typical, my dad had N gauge in the in the early 90s, I had OO gauge. I drifted away from it when I was 12-13, and got back into trains about 10 years ago in my 20s when I had my own place. I'm not sure you can fight that.

No, and this is 100% my concern. I bet most modellers stay with the scale they started with. Not all, sure. I didn't. But the average modeller likely does, because once you start investing in a scale, you lose most if not all of that if you switch to a different one. Yes, controllers and some scenics can be used in different scales, but not the locos and rolling stock. If N wants to grow, it has to attract the younger modellers and hope they stick with it.

Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMI think it's unfair to say 'manufacturers simply aren't trying', nor do I think their inaction is actively hurting the hobby (whether you infer from that "N gauge" or "model railways" the point still stands). It's simply an immutable truth that model railways are a hobby dominated by older people with the time and dispoable income.

Understood, but it didn't used to be that way when there was a model shop on every high street. It isn't in Japan, which is surely the most technology-mad country on Earth -- so it's not just about mobile phones and online gaming.

I'm not trying to be unfair on the manufacturers since they are, after all, the ones risking their capital -- not me. What I am asking them is to ask themselves "What are you doing to attract 12-year-olds into the hobby". If the answer is "Nothing specific," then that's not going to help.

Cheers, NeMo

Not sure there's a good answer to this conundrum, or how anyone with no existing family/friend interest gets into trains. My route was the fairly typical one of following my dad's hobby.

As Ben mentioned, there's been a lot more mainstream exposure for model railways in the recent past but the peak of TV exposure seems to have tailed off now. Obviously Ben is infinitely more qualified to comment in the area of the media, let alone manufacturing, than me.

So assuming that new interest is likely to be a chance visit to a show or occasional event such as the GG, then it seems obvious, with the benefit of striking whilst the iron's hot, that there needs to be something available to buy at a reasonable price, reasonable meaning many different things to many different people. Not been to a big show for a while now but, unless things have changed, N doesn't fare well in the competition for space on retailer stands. TINGS is an obvious exception but it's hardly in a location where its going to pick up impulse passing trade.

Just looked and the cheapest Farish set (pannier, 3 wagons, controller track) is £190 so possibly available around £150 or a bit less with usual discounts and maybe a show deal. I'm really not sure how they can do it much cheaper. Interesting that all sets show as available on the Bachmann site. I've only ever bought one train set, the Farish Highlander set. That wasn't because I wanted a set, I wanted the 37 and coaches, and I wonder if that's fairly typical of a fair proportion of their set sales. There was a spin off there for Farish and others as it was my first DCC loco and got me hooked

I get the theory of a less detailed loco, say a 66, but you also need wagons including separate models to build the first train and then a second. Suitable wagons are not those from Peco or dapol for a tenner or less. Those are old (very old in peco's case) tooling and their newest stuff isnt much different to Farish pricing.
So you're now looking at multiple tooling and a retail price pushing up and up to put together a basic starter set.

If I dare mention TT120, at launch it had a visible champion in Simon Kohler, and Hornby basically "owned" the scale with notable support from peco, but that enabled them to reach out to new markets, knowing any sales would be Hornby. There are notable Champions of the Scale in N beyond just their products, Ben and the team being an obvious example, but its a far more diluted market.

So much as a "railroad" starter set is a good idea in theory, I don't see who is in a position to risk the investment. Where does that leave n?  I suspect as a scale that's adopted as people's interest gets more serious alonside those who start with n due to an influence, the side project that gets people hooked. Is that enough alongside the old blokes like me, who knows but there's still a lot of new stuff being produced in N. Maybe less from Farish than there was 15 years ago but that was before Revolution, Sonic, Rapido.

Apologies for rambling on, a lot of words to basically say I don't know

"Interestingly Stephen McCarron (MD of Accurascale) stated on Facebook this week that the UK N gauge market has 'declined to roughly 5% of the market'. He didn't cite sources, and ultimately he's invested in the OO gauge market, so that narrative suits, whether true or not".

I would personally take what Mr McCarron said with a pretty large pinch of salt. Accurascale quite publicly stated that they have no plans to enter the N market probably two years ago and as a OO manufacturer (with the exception of one O product?) it would therefore suit their narrative completely to downplay the size of the N market.

If you listen to Bachmann's Richard Proudman's comments when interviewed by N Gauge News a year or so ago, he said that it was more a case that British N hadn't grown in market share as had been hoped, not that it had declined. The very fact that they are prepared to commit a six figure sum in tooling locos like the LMS "Twins" and forthcoming V2 indicates to me that they have confidence in the scale or bluntly they wouldn't be doing it.

I would contend that it is far too early to tell if TT120 will impact on OO, N or both for Market share, or indeed carve a niche of it's own as (1) the product range, while slowly growing is still much smaller than OO or N and (2)there isn't yet anything like the broad "ecosystem" that exists in established scales and I reckon it will be another 3 to 5 years before that is clearer. However I have noticed that even some of the newer TT120 locos like the Duchesses are being pretty aggressively discounted and that is either to shift volume, grow market share in the scale or possibly a bit of both, but from a ROI and shareholder perspective, giving up margin to grow sales only works for so long.

What the longer term prognosis for British N is I wouldn't care to speculate, but that goes for the model railway market in general too. I would be prepared to predict that it will still exist as a buoyant mainstream scale in 10 years time, but beyond that there are too many variables to consider, including disposable incomes, the shape of the global economy, technological advances and other "distractions".

In terms of demographic though, I think it fair to say that many young modellers today will begin in OO and then migrate to other scales including N as they get older as has always been the case. So, while there may be some merit in a small range of keenly priced basic entry level sets, I think part of what has re-ignited the popularity of the scale from the doldrums of the early "noughties" is the quality and detail of the models we are seeing now. For many years (and I have been modelling in N for a long time) British N and the Poole Farish products in particular were seen as a very poor relation to those produced in OO, but with the introduction of the much better quality super-detailed models from Dapol and Bachmann from about 2006 that perception changed completely and it now has credibility as a very serous modelling scale.

Personally, and as I have already said, I do not think it is the case that the size of the British N market is contracting, I think what is happening is that we are seeing more products than ever from a bigger range of manufacturers spreading the more inelastic N Gauge modeller's budget amongst more choices. So, unless a model is something mega popular or quirky it will be a bigger challenge to sell volume of any given product. I do think it is entirely possible that from the current "peak" we will still see a decent volume of new products going forward, but not as many as currently and possibly more carefully considered at an individual level.


Roy

I found that Accurascale quote interesting too Roy and you're right, it could be mentioned for all sorts of reasons.

I don't have any OO stuff but the scale does seem to be going through a golden era. More and more, sometimes obscure prototypes available rtr, 2-3 options for many diesel classes (with many an argument on other forums over the quality of each which leave me wondering if some modellers know how lucky they are)

There's also been growth in rtr O and the introduction of tt120, whatever market share it might have.

I've heard the n share quoted between 10 and 20% in the past and would not be surprised if the n share has fallen. But you can often prove whatever you like with numbers and a, say, 5% drop in market share is far from automatically a 5% drop in overall sales.

What goes around comes around and any boom in a particular scale, perceived or not, will level out in time.

If n was really in the doldrums, I wouldn't have 47s, 66s, a 313, and of all things, tube stock on pre-order. I wouldnt have a caledonian sleeper and caroline added to my stock in the last couple of years, or a Co-bo, or a sound fitted 08, 31 and 2mt. In the past the immanent recent arrival of such models, and yes, pre-grouping stock from more than one manufacturer would have been considered a particularly shiny golden era and that's what I pretty much see it as now when looking at the scale as a whole.

Agreed on the Accurascale quote, hence saying that it suits their narrative, and agreed that a decline in market share, even if true, doesn't necessarily equal a decline in absolute sales. The conversation also turned to O, where it was noted that has shrunk right back after a buoyant few years (which I can absolutely believe).

I can't see TT making a huge impact on N. At the moment the range simply lacks cohesion, and although a few people are concertedly trying to make a go of it it's pretty hard, and dominated by 'trainset' people who are happy to have their 66 pulling some 7-plank wagons and a BR petrol tanker. Suits me, I'd say 80% of sales of 3D printed wagons are in TT at the moment for those who do want proper modern stock  Revolution's entry will be interesting there, as will Heljan's, but I still don't see it really impacting N any time soon. Perhaps naively.

Quote from: Suffolk Rob on August 08, 2025, 02:53:02 PMIf n was really in the doldrums, I wouldn't have 47s, 66s, a 313, and of all things, tube stock on pre-order. I wouldnt have a caledonian sleeper and caroline added to my stock in the last couple of years, or a Co-bo, or a sound fitted 08, 31 and 2mt. In the past the immanent recent arrival of such models, and yes, pre-grouping stock from more than one manufacturer would have been considered a particularly shiny golden era and that's what I pretty much see it as now when looking at the scale as a whole.

I haven't personally said it's "in the doldrums", nor is that what I think, but just running through those items:

- 47: Farish, but 4 different liveries available at Rails, with up to 40% off
- 66: Revolution. As I noted, Dapol have been tight-lipped on theirs. Their release announcement said they were due in shops in Q2 2024. We still don't have decorated samples 18 months after that
- 313: Revolution
- tube stock: Revolution
- Caledonian sleeper: Revolution
- Caroline: Revolution

So from that list we can agree that Revolution are huge supporters of N! That's a good thing, don't get me wrong; I have (probably too) many of their models, but that isn't the same as N gauge being in rude health. The others you list I think are mainly Farish to be fair, I'm not saying they've abandoned N by any stretch.

In the doldrums is my choice of words, not an interpretation of anyone else's.

I agree with an awful lot of what you say @njee20, I don't think Farish quite have the balance right with the range of choice in their latest diesel releases. I suspect it's an attempt to "work" limited production slots but has resulted in a lot of 08s, some 31s, 158s and 2mt with big reductions.

Yes, a lot of what I listed is Revolution, but some decent supply of new tooling or upgrades that match my interests recently from Farish too.

I guess the important point is that, 20 years ago, we were totally dependent on Farish, far from the case now

I've taken a hard look at my ability and time and decided that my N gauge modelling will for me be the older transition era steam, diesel and SR EMUs, as well as my attempts at making 3D prints work for me, and in OO I will have blue-grey RTR EMUs and locos with DCC sound. Simple choice. Practicality.

As far as Farish models not selling, I've tried to do my bit.

I've got 4 Freightliner sound equipped CL90's, and both Northern sound equipped CL158's.

I passed on the CL319 as the Northern Electrics livery lasted about 5 minutes, but I'd have a couple of Northern CL769's in today's livery if they were made.

I think one issue for manufacturers is that since privatisation there's much more diversity and fragmentation on railways akin to the pre-grouping era. So that the market for modern(ish) models is tempered by either the wide range of liveries needed or limited geographical reach, or both.

Plus the other big problem for electrics is the lack of a comprehensive set OHLE equipment, especially as N-Brass is no more.

Regards,

John P

Quote from: jpendle on August 08, 2025, 07:57:56 PM..
Plus the other big problem for electrics is the lack of a comprehensive set OHLE equipment, especially as N-Brass is no more.
...

West Hill Wagon Works are giving it a go.

Me too, just listed this lot on eBay! Six different styles of portal with 3 different styles of registration arm!

The West Hill stuff looks like the GW stuff.

@njee where do I find you on ebay?

And are these print to order or ready to ship?

Regards,

John P

They're here John: https://ebay.us/m/ONROnN

Printed to order, but I can get them out to you before the tariff deadline I reckon! Drop me a pm and we can sort it if you're interested, saves you paying eBay GSP rates too!