I'm pretty sure that the blue carflats with the Motorail sign were around in 1968.
The main colour of the carflats was dirt because they were not cleaned. The motorail signs on them didn't seem too dirty though.

Quote from: JTR4472 on August 06, 2025, 04:46:41 PMWell, at first I must say I was quite excited! But then I looked at the prices. £150?!    I honestly would have picked up the Castle class, but it's crazy for a locomotive like that to be priced at that in my opinion. Once people are selling it for cheaper and sales occur, then I might pick some up.

£150 seems like a fair price to me. What do you believe is the right price? I'm confused by "for a loco like this" - it's a (relatively) newly tooled, highly detailed model with sound compatibility and everything I'd expect of a modern model. What model would justify that price in your mind? Plus you save 20% VAT anyway!

Quote from: Roy L S on August 06, 2025, 08:17:47 PM

Quote from: JTR4472 on August 06, 2025, 04:46:41 PMWell, at first I must say I was quite excited! But then I looked at the prices. £150?!    I honestly would have picked up the Castle class, but it's crazy for a locomotive like that to be priced at that in my opinion. Once people are selling it for cheaper and sales occur, then I might pick some up.

When I saw the RRP I actually thought it very fair for a model of that quality, and as has been pointed out, it is very little different to the price when first released some years ago. Most retailers will automatically apply the maximum initially allowed 15% discount from arrival in stock so they will immediately be available for about £127.50 after discount.

@Roy L S  £152.95 is the discounted price. RRP is £179.95 (according to Rails website)

Quote from: Newportnobby on August 07, 2025, 09:53:12 AM

Quote from: Roy L S on August 06, 2025, 08:17:47 PM

Quote from: JTR4472 on August 06, 2025, 04:46:41 PMWell, at first I must say I was quite excited! But then I looked at the prices. £150?!    I honestly would have picked up the Castle class, but it's crazy for a locomotive like that to be priced at that in my opinion. Once people are selling it for cheaper and sales occur, then I might pick some up.

When I saw the RRP I actually thought it very fair for a model of that quality, and as has been pointed out, it is very little different to the price when first released some years ago. Most retailers will automatically apply the maximum initially allowed 15% discount from arrival in stock so they will immediately be available for about £127.50 after discount.

@Roy L S  £152.95 is the discounted price. RRP is £179.95 (according to Rails website)

Thanks Mick,

I should have checked but instead didn't question that it was the RRP being quoted which is my "bad".

Even still, substituting the Castle's correct £179.95 RRP for the one I used, the argument isn't completely invalid as it still compares very well to the inflation adjusted £172 RRP for the very "agricultural" and hugely inferior Poole Farish A4 we could have had in 1999.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and all will be constrained by what they are either able or willing to pay for a given model, but just because something is above a person's price ceiling doesn't mean it is the price that is wrong.

Roy

Kadar, the company that own Bachmann and manufacture all the locos, have made a loss over the last year or so. I therefore don't think you can accuse them of profiteering by charging too much.

There is also the impact of US Tariffs on China manufactured goods destined for the US that is yet to be felt in terms of production. That could work for UK and continental modellers if more production slots become available, but equally it could work against if the factory hikes prices to make up for lost revenue from the US.

Roy

Up to a point, I agree.

The problem for me is that these aren't products at price points that will attract new blood into the hobby. If you're using an inflation calculator to work out what the model would have cost you in 1990, you're not new blood.

Almost all of the brand new models I've been buying have been Japanese N scale. At least in Japan, you can get an EF66 with two coaches from Tomix for an RRP of about £70 and as low as £45 in some shops. Throw in a loop of Unitrack (or Tomix's equivalent) and you've got a nice set-up that a kid could realistically ask from Santa. Or maybe save up some birthday money. Either way, affordable.

For sure, Tomix (and Kato) make compromises. You have to fit the number plates and maker plates yourself, and some of the hand rails and horns are on sprues as well. There's no DCC slot let alone provision for DCC sound. But these models aren't Hornby 'Smokey Joe' level of tat: they have all the right dimensions (except, of course, gauge!) and authentic liveries, plus famously reliable mechanisms that don't require fettling.

But still, I desperately believe that Bachmann need to make some low-end, but nice, models that can be sold as a starter pack for under £100. It's not just price they need to think about, but strategy. They need to be setting up train sets in shopping malls and department stores where kids can see them. They need to have affordable starer packs sold in shops that don't otherwise sell model trains.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 08:30:23 AM£150 seems like a fair price to me. What do you believe is the right price? I'm confused by "for a loco like this" - it's a (relatively) newly tooled, highly detailed model with sound compatibility and everything I'd expect of a modern model. What model would justify that price in your mind? Plus you save 20% VAT anyway!

Quote from: NeMo on August 07, 2025, 01:46:07 PMUp to a point, I agree.

The problem for me is that these aren't products at price points that will attract new blood into the hobby. If you're using an inflation calculator to work out what the model would have cost you in 1990, you're not new blood.

Almost all of the brand new models I've been buying have been Japanese N scale. At least in Japan, you can get an EF66 with two coaches from Tomix for an RRP of about £70 and as low as £45 in some shops. Throw in a loop of Unitrack (or Tomix's equivalent) and you've got a nice set-up that a kid could realistically ask from Santa. Or maybe save up some birthday money. Either way, affordable.

For sure, Tomix (and Kato) make compromises. You have to fit the number plates and maker plates yourself, and some of the hand rails and horns are on sprues as well. There's no DCC slot let alone provision for DCC sound. But these models aren't Hornby 'Smokey Joe' level of tat: they have all the right dimensions (except, of course, gauge!) and authentic liveries, plus famously reliable mechanisms that don't require fettling.

But still, I desperately believe that Bachmann need to make some low-end, but nice, models that can be sold as a starter pack for under £100. It's not just price they need to think about, but strategy. They need to be setting up train sets in shopping malls and department stores where kids can see them. They need to have affordable starer packs sold in shops that don't otherwise sell model trains.

Cheers, NeMo

However it is also true to say that Japan is one of, if not the largest marked for N Gauge products and the production volumes are very significantly greater than they are for the British N market. As with any product, be it a toaster, a mobile phone, or a model loco, the larger the volume produced the lower the unit price will be. For those who want to model Japanese prototypes that is of course good news, but for those (I would think the vast majority on this Forum for a start) who model or would wish to model British outline, the comparison isn't all that relevant.

I do agree that an affordable starter set, as Hornby are doing with the very basic TT120 "Branch Line Freight" with a down to a price B4 tank loco (looking very "Smoky Joe" to me) and a couple of very generic wagons, could be a good idea: -

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/hornby-tt1005m-branchline-freight-train-set?

In fact not so long ago Farish used to do the very cheap "Gaffer" entry level set, along these lines, but I am not sure if this kind of thing is part of the current Bachmann marketing philosophy which I accept is the very point you are making.

Roy

Hi all,

Roy is right.

By far the biggest factor in the price of any model is the number of units you expect to make.

If your tooling costs $100,000 (not unsusual for a loco) and you only expect to sell 2000 then each loco will cost $50 before you even add in the cost of design, manufacture, shipping and of course VAT.

And then you have to add in profit to pay salaries, maintain a warehouse or office, fund new model development, attend exhibitions etc etc.

The population of Japan is approx twice that of the UK and N is the dominant scale.  Plus model trains are cool there.  (Admittedly they are less 'uncool' here than they used to be as people come to understand the mental health advantages of a creative pastime.)

Kato will not produce anything with a production run of less than 10,000 units.  A Revolution run will be barely a quarter of that; sometimes significantly less.

And relatively inexpensive Kato sets are available from time to time. This one is £115:

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/gaugemaster-collection-gm2000105-br-industrial-freight-starter-set-wagon-set?_pos=6&_sid=9b6ca8d61&_ss=r&_fid=b6fbe06df

That all being said, I do agree that as a collective the model railway industry could be better at getting its products under the noses of the general public.  It's one reason Revolution attended the Greatest Gathering last weekend - a good opportunity to show our products to a non-railway modelling audience.  And Rails of Sheffield are taking a retail unit at Sheffield station as an experiment:

https://tinyurl.com/yc8satje

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Roy L S on August 07, 2025, 02:08:06 PMHowever it is also true to say that Japan is one of, if not the largest marked for N Gauge products and the production volumes are very significantly greater than they are for the British N market. As with any product, be it a toaster, a mobile phone, or a model loco, the larger the volume produced the lower the unit price will be. For those who want to model Japanese prototypes that is of course good news, but for those (I would think the vast majority on this Forum for a start) who model or would wish to model British outline, the comparison isn't all that relevant.

I know that Roy, but by concern is that the UK industry uses this as an excuse (or at least a justification) for endlessly going after the same market. When I walk around TINGS, I feel like a youngster -- and I'm in my 50s! What I don't see (with all due respect to Ben's comment about the Gathering) is much of a coherent plan to grow the market outside of what already exists.

My comparison with the Japanese market was more about how you don't see endless pursuit of high fidelity models at the cost of affordability and reliability -- which is, I think, what the UK market does. Is there any reason why a dimensionally accurate Class 47 or 66 with moulded details and a reliable mechanism couldn't be turned out for under £100?

Hornby's 'Railroad' brand comes in for a lot of stick, but when I talk to kids who model railways, those are the models they buy. Heck, the son of a family friend visited the other day and he was proudly showing off his secondhand Mainline models! Young people are under all sorts of financial constrains these days, and if Bachmann doesn't adapt to that, I don't see them growing the hobby.

I'm somewhat involved with Kato's 'Diorama Circus' thing which goes to schools, among other places, and encourages youngsters and 'non-modellers' to create whimsical micro-layouts that connect up at train shows into one giant layout. The kits are cheap, and while they're not everyone's cup of tea, they are an example of way companies can try to go after people who wouldn't have the time, space, or money to build a 'proper' layout.

Honestly, I think Bachmann have announced some lovely products and hope they sell well. It's just that I'd also like to see them be more creative about growing the market, not just satisfying the market that currently exists.

Cheers, NeMo

is there some way to re shape these posts to fit the usual page size ?

It's the Rails URL in Ben's post, needs trimming! New page now, so order restored!

Quote from: NeMo on August 07, 2025, 04:07:24 PMI know that Roy, but by concern is that the UK industry uses this as an excuse (or at least a justification) for endlessly going after the same market. When I walk around TINGS, I feel like a youngster -- and I'm in my 50s! What I don't see (with all due respect to Ben's comment about the Gathering) is much of a coherent plan to grow the market outside of what already exists.

My comparison with the Japanese market was more about how you don't see endless pursuit of high fidelity models at the cost of affordability and reliability -- which is, I think, what the UK market does. Is there any reason why a dimensionally accurate Class 47 or 66 with moulded details and a reliable mechanism couldn't be turned out for under £100?

Because, like Ben said, the tooling cost is massive. Tooling a simple model isn't going to be markedly cheaper than a complex one (when it comes to something like a 66), but you risk disengaging existing modellers who don't want a low-detail model; so what's the market for the hypothetical 'railroad' 66? The market is awash with Farish and Dapol 66s, or Farish 47s. If Revolution sell 3000 of an all-singing and dancing one are there 6000 people waiting in the wings to buy a 'cheap' one? I'm not convinced.

Have you seen how much games consoles (and games) are? Price is not a barrier to entry for younger people in any meaningful sense IMO.

Quote from: Bigmac on August 07, 2025, 07:19:17 PMis there some way to re shape these posts to fit the usual page size ?

Sorted. Ben's huge URL given the shrink treatment

Quote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 07:56:11 PMHave you seen how much games consoles (and games) are? Price is not a barrier to entry for younger people in any meaningful sense IMO.

As someone who keeps up with the gaming news, there's more of a shift of gamers going towards cheaper and older games as of late, mostly due the Triple A gaming industry continues to pump out sub-par products that cost far too much and have micro-transactions designed to drain your bank balance.

It's something around 70+% of PC gamers playing games older than 6 years, and the most successful games as of late have been the more affordable independently developed games around the £20-40 price range, even some around £10 becoming quite popular as well.

Then there's the frequent seasonal sales as well when you can pick up something which use to be £60 at less than £10, outside of the whales and the "MUST HAVE" titles, gamers will wait for a sale to buy something.

Quote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 07:56:11 PMI'm not convinced.

Indeed, and I understand your points entirely. But my concern is that the UK N scale hobby is looking at a declining market and ageing demographic, and responding, like Ned Flanders' dad, with 'We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas'. They seem to be doing the same thing over and over and over: transition-era steam and diesel for the nostalgic modeller who grew up back then, and a sprinkling of super-high detail (often semi-permanently coupled) models of those with deep pockets and big houses.

Britain is struggling with the vast difference in lived experiences between those in their teens and 20s compared with those in their 60s and 70s. The country feels very different to those two demographics. The industry doesn't seem to have adapted to that. It focuses on the one, but has (as far as I can tell) absolutely no idea how to engage with the other.

My fervent wish isn't for a 'Railroad' 66 to cannibalise sales of the high-end ones from Dapol or Farish, but an enterprising company to sell 'Railroad' sets containing a basic 66 and a few wagons to children and teenagers who couldn't afford the Dapol or Farish ones. My observation of the Japanese models is that it's perfectly possible to make models that are dimensionally correct but have economies made in terms of fitted details. Where UK modellers expect their locos to have all the bits fitted already, Japanese modellers are used to fitting those details themselves, or else having them moulded to cut costs.

I admit, that unlike Ben I don't have any skin in the game. So, I may need to content myself with watching the UK N scale marketplace get smaller and older as the years pass. I know a handful of children and teenagers with model trains: not one of them models in N scale. Part of that is that they simply didn't know it existed, and when they got 'into trains', their families bought them Hornby stuff that was sold in toy shops or from Argos.

Cheers, NeMo