Quote from: Nbodger on October 10, 2022, 08:49:24 PM

Quote from: port perran on October 10, 2022, 08:41:57 PM
And is it a threat to N gauge?

This is what I was thinking, how much of a threat it will be.

If it takes off, other manufacturers get involved hence reduced production slots for N.

Will people look more favourable on TT than N as a space saver, I certainly may have years ago. N is only a small percentage of the sales of model railways will TT see it reduced further

I hadn't really thought about TT:120 being a threat to other scales, taking the 'creating a new market' policy at face value, but receiving Hornby's TT Club pack today (lanyard, Id card, pin brooch + catalogue ), I'm now less sure.

Hornby are clearly going 'all in'.

Trying to picture a new railway modeller choosing their scale when all Hornby's announced range is  available, they would struggle to actually buy corresponding models (I focused on wagons) in N Gauge. A quick skim of Hattons website revealed most of Peco and Dapol's range in stock, but very few (13!) from Farish, and most of those second hand.

That's where the risk is, newcomers not choosing N, with obvious consequences for where manufacturers focus their future efforts.

Mike

Quote from: maridunian on November 21, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
A quick skim of Hattons website revealed most of Peco and Dapol's range in stock, but very few (13!) from Farish, and most of those second hand.

Yeah but haven't Hattons fallen out with Bachmann hence the absence of Farish in stock? That skews the sample somewhat.   What about other dealers?

Quote from: ntpntpntp on November 21, 2022, 12:27:00 PM

Quote from: maridunian on November 21, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
A quick skim of Hattons website revealed most of Peco and Dapol's range in stock, but very few (13!) from Farish, and most of those second hand.

Yeah but haven't Hattons fallen out with Bachmann hence the absence of Farish in stock? That skews the sample somewhat.   What about other dealers?

Correct, Hattons will not stock anything from Bachmann or any of their sub-brands including Farish.

A better sample would be at Rails of Sheffield (incidentally no longer stocking Hornby, but that's irrelevant for TT) or Model Railways Direct.

Skyline2uk

Quote from: Skyline2uk on November 21, 2022, 12:37:24 PM

Quote from: ntpntpntp on November 21, 2022, 12:27:00 PM

Quote from: maridunian on November 21, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
A quick skim of Hattons website revealed most of Peco and Dapol's range in stock, but very few (13!) from Farish, and most of those second hand.

Yeah but haven't Hattons fallen out with Bachmann hence the absence of Farish in stock? That skews the sample somewhat.   What about other dealers?

Correct, Hattons will not stock anything from Bachmann or any of their sub-brands including Farish.

Ah, OK that's a better stock - https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/n-gauge-wagons-freight?tags_availability_ovs8irlcu1it987sg6v9cr6a=In%2520Stock&tags_condition_9sx7c9kasonnsc2lopb7xv6y=New&tags_brand_td93xydblb7cxukrqni65zsz=Graham-Farish

Shows how often I buy new RTR!

Hopefully new, would-be railway modellers comparing N with TT:120 will possess these insights and a mind to shop around...

Mike

Quote from: maridunian on November 21, 2022, 12:15:14 PM

Quote from: Nbodger on October 10, 2022, 08:49:24 PM

Quote from: port perran on October 10, 2022, 08:41:57 PM
And is it a threat to N gauge?

This is what I was thinking, how much of a threat it will be.

If it takes off, other manufacturers get involved hence reduced production slots for N.

Will people look more favourable on TT than N as a space saver, I certainly may have years ago. N is only a small percentage of the sales of model railways will TT see it reduced further

I hadn't really thought about TT:120 being a threat to other scales, taking the 'creating a new market' policy at face value, but receiving Hornby's TT Club pack today (lanyard, Id card, pin brooch + catalogue ), I'm now less sure.

Hornby are clearly going 'all in'.

Trying to picture a new railway modeller choosing their scale when all Hornby's announced range is  available, they would struggle to actually buy corresponding models (I focused on wagons) in N Gauge. A quick skim of Hattons website revealed most of Peco and Dapol's range in stock, but very few (13!) from Farish, and most of those second hand.

That's where the risk is, newcomers not choosing N, with obvious consequences for where manufacturers focus their future efforts.

Mike

Still unclear where they think this new market is going to come from. Why would a new gauge suddenly make someone buy model trains if they weren't going to anyway, in one gauge or another?

There's also a fair chance that there will be runs of a model, then no more for ages - just like with existing gauges. Hornby themselves are bad for this. Want an OO gauge HST in Executive livery? Well, hard luck! Since they brought out the current power car models over a decade ago they've only done one batch in that livery (one of which used an incorrect body variation). These are long sold out, and go for silly amounts on ebay whenever they come up.

If TT proves popular (which remains to be seen, of course), can we expect similar to happen?

I absolutely cannot see TT being produced in any other style than the current trend for the other "mainstream" gauges.

Batches produced in China, maybe never to be made again, repeat livery runs being very rare.

Sad reality of modern production of minority consumer goods.

That being said, this:

QuoteWant an OO gauge HST in Executive livery? Well, hard luck! Since they brought out the current power car models over a decade ago they've only done one batch in that livery (one of which used an incorrect body variation). These are long sold out, and go for silly amounts on ebay whenever they come up.

Is shocking and makes me glad Dapol seem to be revisiting popular HST colours at least 2 times.

Skyline2uk

My TT120 club badges and catalogue arrived in France today (postmarked 28 November).

The catalogue reminded me of the Triang catalogues in the 1960s.

Bit of a bump but some might find this interesting.........

More twaddle from Sam, supported by dubious poll statistics.    It's been discussed at length on the Hornby TT forum.

All done for "clicks". It will be a slow burn and take many years to establish itself but his thoughts on a big bang approach are naive in the extreme. Indeed when TT3 was introduced it started small with a Jinty, Castle and limited track and rolling stock, whether its fate will be the same remains to be seen, but it may appeal to the established Global TT market so personally I do see a future for it to some degree.

Marklin created Z scale to avoid competing with the N gauge market so they could keep customers to their own brand products and relatively high margins. Hornby TT seems to be a similar play built in a direct distribution model and targetting specific periods to make it work.

That said I hope it does well. TT was a lovely scale to work in because the extra size let you do things that are hard in N to do well or reliably, but not the big space hog that OO is.

QuoteStill unclear where they think this new market is going to come from. Why would a new gauge suddenly make someone buy model trains if they weren't going to anyway, in one gauge or another?

The model railway market has a significant turnover because most modellers (in money terms) start after having evicted the kids or retired and time does the rest.

So there is always a new audience to appeal to.

It will also I suspect be much easier to make TT kid safe than N.

Quote from: EtchedPixels on February 28, 2024, 08:12:39 PM

QuoteStill unclear where they think this new market is going to come from. Why would a new gauge suddenly make someone buy model trains if they weren't going to anyway, in one gauge or another?

The model railway market has a significant turnover because most modellers (in money terms) start after having evicted the kids or retired and time does the rest.

So there is always a new audience to appeal to.

It will also I suspect be much easier to make TT kid safe than N.

An interesting point on the "kid safe" issue and it prompted me to take a look at the packaging of my TT120 Class 08 shunter. Just like N the model is described as "not suitable for children under 14 years" so it would not appear that the scale is at this stage anyway being produced with a children's market in mind.

I do have some "skin" in the game having purchased some TT120 bits - an "Easterner" set and the 08, a few wagons and some Peco points/track for a small side-project but have put it on hold until more locos and stock that are suitable arrive.

My take on the locos and stock is that they are competent rather than ground-breaking, no more detailed than current generation N and technically less sophisticated in many cases. Overall for me it has few real advantages over N - yes it is a bit bigger which may appeal to some who like to dabble in scratch-building I can see that, but on the other hand, to achieve a comparable layout size to N requires a substantially bigger footprint. To take the example of my current N layout which is 2.5ft x 7.5ft equating to 18.75 square feet, were it to be TT 120 it would need to be 5/4ths wider and deeper so would be 9.4ft x 3.1ft which equates to 29.1 square feet a whole 10 square feet bigger.

I certainly do think TT120 will carve a niche for itself and have a modest success as an alternative modelling scale for British outline modellers, it does have other advantages too in that the scale is consistent with continental TT which is popular in some European countries and it has a "pure" scale/gauge ratio (albeit British N's discrepancy is a fraction of a millimetre). If it were to attract existing modellers or indeed newcomers away from any established scale I actually think more might elect for TT120 over OO personally, but it will be many years before sufficient range exists for it to have any meaningful impact in my opinion.

Roy

The "not for children under 14" thing is to do with the European Toy Safety Directive, which I belive has things like design, QC and tax implications - if it's specifically not for children under 14 it's not classified as a toy.

My now seven year old son plays with my N gauge, and has a growing collection of his own. He's played with it since he was 3, and has broken significantly fewer items than me in that time!

Quote from: njee20 on February 28, 2024, 09:47:34 PMThe "not for children under 14" thing is to do with the European Toy Safety Directive, which I belive has things like design, QC and tax implications - if it's specifically not for children under 14 it's not classified as a toy.

My now seven year old son plays with my N gauge, and has a growing collection of his own. He's played with it since he was 3, and has broken significantly fewer items than me in that time!

No argument from me on that score, I know plenty of other examples including my own daughter who were equally careful when under 14 (she is now 31) but the point remains that if Hornby are including those words and that caveat they are not targeting the toy market with these products.

Regards

Roy