GWR Small Prairie? Different tank tops are available too (even if they went out of date in the 1970s).

Bob

Quote from: Ensign Elliott on January 17, 2024, 06:43:16 PMHaving done a few tank engines, I'm hoping they will venture into larger locos - I'm holding out for a King or a County

I understand that Sam of Sonic designed the (DCC ready) Coronation Pacifics (Duchesses) when he worked for Bachmann.

I imagine he is taking things slowly, building a reputation/following before producing an N Tender loco. Yes a King or County would be nice, but I think a County would be a better option with it's straight splasher and nameplate. Also the flat sided Hawksworth tender makes them something just a bit different.

I'd buy an A5 if offered by Sonic. The research has been done for the OO versions.
Arguably, a good fit alongside Sonic's GWR large prairie as both classes worked on the Great Central-GW joint line.

Just absolutely random speculation for fun (as most of this is anyway), but I wonder if Sam might have a go at testing his limits a bit in the other direction and make a smaller loco like a 13xx (with the potential of both the saddle and pannier variant bodies on the same chassis) or a Manning Wardle 0-6-0.

If he was really pushing the limits (especially in terms of still being able to get a DCC chip in) there's a few 0-4-0s that might be viable, but I suspect the smaller 0-6-0 classes are the practical bottom limit for RTR at the moment.

Quote from: Steven B on January 18, 2024, 04:14:50 PMGWR: 2251 class 0-6-0 would go well amongst the models already produced. Made several years ago by Peco with a rarely used tender but never re-run. Otherwise, an outside frame 4-4-0 could be fun - 3200 Earl or 3600 City would be my choices (one of each preserved).

Well I have two (2) Peco 0-6-0 locos...so don't need any more. I also have all of the now OOP UM GWR locos, including their 4-4-0 outside frame ones....great locos. So not sure what else I need. I could have bought the Sonic GWR tank loco but I didn't for a few reasons (1) it was expensive (2) while I do love GWR I couldn't see a use for this specific loco type for my collection. I would however love a King, a County, a Saint...some 3D options out there and I might go that way. Yet, first, I have to find time to do a lot of other projects.

Given that a lot of the UM models had very limited valve gear and all are now out of production a model from these would be nice to see. I would love to see more 4-4-0 locos.

A proper Collett 0-6-0 goods with a proper tender would be great (particularly as no one is making a Southern 4-6-0 soon)

All good fun wishlisting, and as a NER area modeller I'd be happy with any of the LNER types that have been mentioned (apart from the B13) - even the N2 was seen on the Alston branch (once?  ). Really hope he does the obvious and shrinks the A5.

But the huge gap, as Kris said above, is 4-4-0 tender locos, for all companies.

4-4-0 and 0-6-0 tender locos were *the* two quintessential British steam loco types for over a century, massively outnumbering all other wheel arrangements, but you wouldn't think so looking at RTR manufacturers' ranges (in 4mm as well as N).

Whenever anyone says "all the obvious prototypes have gone" for RTR manufacturers I give a hollow laugh! As far as 4-4-0s are concerned they've barely scratched the surface.

Richard

theres plenty of 4-4-0 types from Union Mills--regularly listed on ebay.

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 07:49:44 AMtheres plenty of 4-4-0 types from Union Mills--regularly listed on ebay.

In fact thanks to Union Mills British N has been well served in terms of 4-4-0 tender locos, made possible by using a single basic tender-drive and some compromises around accuracy of the tenders used. From memory I think we have seen: -

- LNER D20
- LNER D11
- LNER D16/3

- LMS 2P

- SR T9

- GW "Dukedog"
- GW "City"

There have been a few kits but the only other RTR 4-4-0s I am aware of in British N since the very start are: -

Farish

- LMS Compound

Dapol

- Southern Schools

By Comparison OO hasn't done a lot better in terms of mainstream RTR 4-4-0s (OO Works may also have made a couple of models): -

Bachmann

- D11
- Compound
- GW "City"
- GW "Dukedog"

Dapol

- Two SR 4-4-0s as a limited edition (I think for Rails).

Hornby

All "legacy" models but from memory: -

- LNER "Shire"
- LMS 2P
- LMS Compound
- GW "County" (original not 4-6-0)
- SR Schools

Plus the venerable original Tri-Ang Southern L1.

I absolutely agree that 4-4-0s were a backbone of the railways for many years, especially as regards passenger services even if withdrawals began in earnest in the mid-1950s.

 I would imagine that for Bachmann and others with the move to loco drive being seen as a "must" for a variety of reasons including DCC and space for a speaker, in N, arranging the mechanism and adhesive weight so that a loco can haul a respectable train could be a challenge, possibly overcome in part at least by having a cast metal body and traction tyres. In terms of getting a motor in, I can't see a problem if one can be squeezed in the C Class.

Of course Dapol have made the Schools Class utilising their tender mounted motor and shaft to loco-drive which clearly provides an alternative way of doing things but I don't think it is something that would meet expectations for new-tool models these days.

So after all that can I realistically see anyone producing a 4-4-0 to modern standards in N going forward?

The short answer is "no" but if anyone were to, I would discount it being Bachmann or Dapol, more likely I would think Sonic or Rapido.

Roy

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 07:49:44 AMtheres plenty of 4-4-0 types from Union Mills--regularly listed on ebay.

The point being that Union Mills no longer exist, and were a niche manufacturer when they did exist.

But yes, they were the only manufacturer who acknowledged the types of locos which formed the backbone of the British steam railway era. I'd hope that with UM's demise one of the other more high-fidelity manufacturers might see the potential in some of their prototypes. A biggish 4-4-0, especially one with large splashers, shouldn't present too many motor/weight issues. And as for haulage powers - short light trains are what 4-4-0s pulled. Four bogies would do. Otherwise copy the Midland and double-head!

Richard

RT

The real void is anything smaller than a Terrier/J94. In OO Hornby have sold a lot of Pecketts and Rustons (even if Hattons didn't manage to sell enough Barclays).

Mike

Quote from: Richard Taylor on January 19, 2024, 01:13:00 PM

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 07:49:44 AMtheres plenty of 4-4-0 types from Union Mills--regularly listed on ebay.

The point being that Union Mills no longer exist, and were a niche manufacturer when they did exist.

But yes, they were the only manufacturer who acknowledged the types of locos which formed the backbone of the British steam railway era. I'd hope that with UM's demise one of the other more high-fidelity manufacturers might see the potential in some of their prototypes. A biggish 4-4-0, especially one with large splashers, shouldn't present too many motor/weight issues. And as for haulage powers - short light trains are what 4-4-0s pulled. Four bogies would do. Otherwise copy the Midland and double-head!

Richard

RT

Absolutely, from my perspective I was just acknowledging what Union Mills has delivered for N modellers and reflecting who (if anyone) might make a 4-4-0 going forward.

I am not so sure that large wheels/splashers would be an advantage for a manufacturer as there would be a need to squeeze a motor into a very limited space between them, probably requiring a coreless motor of 7mm diameter. I would also challenge the notion that they only pulled short trains, it may have been true in some cases, like 2Ps on the Somerset and Dorset, but locos like D11s and D20s were often expected to pull a lot more than than a few coaches, so as well as a cast body for weight over the drivers, I would think traction tyres inevitable as part of any design.

However it is all theoretical and likely to remain so as in my humble opinion a new 4-4-0 of any type is unlikely from any other manufacturer following the closure of Union Mills, and I feel fortunate to have three such models, including the D20 and D16/3 which I will probably end up chipping at some point.

Roy

so--beside the 56xx gw tank loco--did sonic also do the j94 saddle tank and the j class tank with the holes in the side ? (the latter 2 held no interest for me--i dont do ER locos ).

It would be nice to see something with outside motion though.

Quote from: Bigmac on January 19, 2024, 05:10:22 PMso--beside the 56xx gw tank loco--did sonic also do the j94 saddle tank and the j class tank with the holes in the side ? (the latter 2 held no interest for me--i dont do ER locos ).

It would be nice to see something with outside motion though.

The 56xx is a Sonic product as is the J50 (with holes in the sides as you put it) the J94 (as it was classified in LNER parlance) is an EFE product and while the LNER did buy a number (75) it is actually a War Department Austerity product designed by RA Riddles and built by Hunslet and subcontractors so is more of an industrial loco.