I would forego lighting all day long, particularly when it compromises performance. That said, it appears to be a contributory factor, but certainly not the only problem, but yes, inside bearing bogies will always be hard. My 3D printed LTF-25s have markedly more drag than anything with pinpoints. I don't doubt for one moment that Ben and Mike foresaw an entire rake being manageable, so sure we'll get there. Then you can watch for how to scale down the JHAs!

OK, so I have now had my lowlander rake running for over 4 hrs, in various consists, at scale speeds between 60 and 90mph. In distance these coaches have run something like a scale 300 miles.

I still have to progress past 8 coaches consistantly on any train. Some coaches are free running straight out of the box, others after a bit of fettling as per the instructions on the Revolution site, and others which regardless of all work are still proving to be very "draggy".

The B2B has been checked on every axel of the draggy coaches, and all found to be between 7.4mm and 7.6mm, I also removed the contact bars on the bogies, but this did not appear to make much difference.

My layout is approx 3 scale miles per circuit. with one small rise which is approx 3% for about 0.5m.

With 8 coaches I can now run any of my 92's, the only sound equipped one has not had any additional weight added and does struggle slightly, the modified 92's handle the 8 coach rakes fine. I have even tried the Dapol 67010, which will pull 8 no problem, however the Dapol 87401 was ok on the flat but failed on the incline.

Of particular note the sitting coaches and the bar coaches were very free running out of the box. the issues appear to be on some of the sleeping coaches.

I did get up to 12 coaches behind a 60, but had a few uncoupling issues which I could not appear to resolve, so did not try any other traction. Will spend some more time with them on Thursday and see how much better they can get.

I did set up a Pendolino set and try a push test on coaches side by side, surprisingly the "draggy" mk5 coaches performed about the same as a Pendolino coach.

As someone else has said these are definitely cutting edge with regard to the technology for n. But hey if someone doesn't try we will be stuck with no progress in the hobby.

Overall I love the look of them, like the lights, even though they are a pain to turn off every time you start up a rake. As for the running qualities, well, I am sure Revolution will resolve this.

Next step is to replace the couplings with the schaffenberg ones in the pack and see if I can resolve the uncoupling so I can reliably test longer rakes.

Quote from: njee20 on October 02, 2023, 03:13:34 PM

Quote from: Bealman on October 02, 2023, 08:10:25 AMI always think we should be thankful for lighting at all in N gauge, thanks to the miniaturisation of LEDs. I really don't care if it is prototypical or not. I just like seeing lights of any sort on N gauge models.

Really? "Put up and shut up"? If people don't raise frustrations they don't get sorted. I don't want to have to individually turn off 47 sets of lights (31 red, and 16 interior lights which highlight the fact there are no passengers!) every single time I start the train. Given the performance degredation I, like others, will probably remove them. Then I've paid for a feature I neither wanted (and I'll confess I never read was included, but wouldn't likely have influenced my buying choice) or will ever use.

I'm sorry, but if anyone is remotely worried about turning off lights on carriages in N scale which will be running around at speed anyway and so will hardly be noticed - then that falls into my category of rivet counting. Sorry.

Rant over.

Quote from: Bealman on October 03, 2023, 08:09:52 AMI'm sorry, but if anyone is remotely worried about turning off lights on carriages in N scale which will be running around at speed anyway and so will hardly be noticed - then that falls into my category of rivet counting. Sorry.

Rant over.

I think you are choosing to misunderstand what is needed here. EVERY time the train starts from a standstill, every light comes on. With the train moving two sets of tail lights on all but one coach need turning off as a minimum and one set of internal lights if those are unwanted for that journey/time of day. That is every time the train starts and can only be done with the moving train.

 Imagine instead that you were required to recouple every vehicle in every train every time you had to run it, or stop and reverse it. At least you could couple up with the train stationary. But I suspect it would turn us all into "rivet counters".

Quote from: Bealman on October 03, 2023, 08:09:52 AM

Quote from: njee20 on October 02, 2023, 03:13:34 PM

Quote from: Bealman on October 02, 2023, 08:10:25 AMI always think we should be thankful for lighting at all in N gauge, thanks to the miniaturisation of LEDs. I really don't care if it is prototypical or not. I just like seeing lights of any sort on N gauge models.

Really? "Put up and shut up"? If people don't raise frustrations they don't get sorted. I don't want to have to individually turn off 47 sets of lights (31 red, and 16 interior lights which highlight the fact there are no passengers!) every single time I start the train. Given the performance degredation I, like others, will probably remove them. Then I've paid for a feature I neither wanted (and I'll confess I never read was included, but wouldn't likely have influenced my buying choice) or will ever use.

I'm sorry, but if anyone is remotely worried about turning off lights on carriages in N scale which will be running around at speed anyway and so will hardly be noticed - then that falls into my category of rivet counting. Sorry.

Rant over.

I think that is a rather simplistic and short sighted view, and one that does you no favours. 

Certainly not everyone operates their railway running vehicles "at speed"; some of us have trains arriving and departing, stopping at signals, etc., and running through our scenic sections at sensible and appropriate speeds.  As an example on one of my FY to Terminus layouts, trains never exceed a scale 30 mph.

So, whilst I am with Nick (njee20) with regards to lighting, particularly on transition locomotives, I can fully appreciate why many N gauge modellers appreciate lighting and why the on/off arrangement for said lighting on these MK5s is problematic.

Your comment is unkind, unwarranted and shows your lack of understanding of the issue.

Thank you for that. Certainly, as a mod, I have no intention of starting a slanging match. However, I am entitled to an opinion.

I have said quite a few times over the years that we are just big boys and girls playing with trains. How seriously people want to take the hobby is up to them, but I'm sorry, I don't see anything unkind about what I said.

I bow out.

Yes, do. You appear to have no skin in this game, and are purely posting to antagonise.

Have an opinion, of course, but no need to foist it on others, nor denigrate people for theirs.

Quote from: Graham on October 03, 2023, 07:39:13 AMOf particular note the sitting coaches and the bar coaches were very free running out of the box. the issues appear to be on some of the sleeping coaches.

I did get up to 12 coaches behind a 60, but had a few uncoupling issues which I could not appear to resolve, so did not try any other traction. Will spend some more time with them on Thursday and see how much better they can get.

I did set up a Pendolino set and try a push test on coaches side by side, surprisingly the "draggy" mk5 coaches performed about the same as a Pendolino coach.

As someone else has said these are definitely cutting edge with regard to the technology for n. But hey if someone doesn't try we will be stuck with no progress in the hobby.

Overall I love the look of them, like the lights, even though they are a pain to turn off every time you start up a rake. As for the running qualities, well, I am sure Revolution will resolve this.

Next step is to replace the couplings with the schaffenberg ones in the pack and see if I can resolve the uncoupling so I can reliably test longer rakes.

Interested to see how you find the Dellners (aren't they, rather than Scharferbergs?). It looks to me like the only bit which actually keeps them coupled is the small bar below the actual interface, which appears extremely small, and is distorted on some of mine. Given how heavy a full rake is, even when pulled by hand I can't see them being stiff enough. They look good though.

Also interesting observation about the different type of cosches, I'd not got that far.

I've all but given up on mine for now, they've had far too much of my time. I'll wait for a proper fix.

For anyone with overhead wires installed for the Class 92 to run under, slipping the wand between wire and coach roof may become an important skill to learn. I can't believe that was a scenario tested before the "all lights on at start up" configuration was chosen.

From what has been said here and elsewhere, Revolution saw no issues with the free-running of the Mk5s on their test samples. It remains to be seen if the problem's due to a change at the factory (like the Rapido Conflats) or down to the bogies not being put together properly.

How much of the problems are down to the electrical pick-up and how much is due to the internal bearings remains to be seen. Internal bearings are hard to do. Neither Farish or Dapols class 220 were particularly free running.


What might be worth further discussion given the problems with the lighting limitations on DC is whether as modellers it's something we want. Personally I don't what interior lighting and would either remove it or permanently switch it off. Dapol's approach of light bars available as a separate item is probably the best solution for most.

I can see several different approaches, the question is are there any others and which would we as modellers prefer?

A. factory fitted lights with magnetic wands - current Revolution and Rapido approach but need turning off again every time power is reapplied on DC.

B. Push the boundary further - fit the magnet controlled lights but power from a battery so they don't turn off when track power is removed. Recharging from the track would be a bonus.

C. Factory fitted lights with switches to turn lights on and off, either needs roof removing or vehicle lifting from track to access switches that might compromise roof or underframe detail.

D. Don't fit lighting - add the pick-ups but sell us light bars as optional extras

E. Don't fit lighting, don't fit pick-ups.


SB

To pick up on earlier comments, I would happily do without lighting.  But that is me.  I have no issues with it being there for those who want it, provided I can turn it off.  For my deerstalker express I have removed the pick ups from the bogies when I fettled the burrs away.  But they are in a little bag in the box, so if I sold them I could replace them.

Quote from: Steven B on October 03, 2023, 09:29:43 AMI can see several different approaches, the question is are there any others and which would we as modellers prefer?

A. factory fitted lights with magnetic wands - current Revolution and Rapido approach but need turning off again every time power is reapplied on DC.

B. Push the boundary further - fit the magnet controlled lights but power from a battery so they don't turn off when track power is removed. Recharging from the track would be a bonus.

C. Factory fitted lights with switches to turn lights on and off, either needs roof removing or vehicle lifting from track to access switches that might compromise roof or underframe detail.

D. Don't fit lighting - add the pick-ups but sell us light bars as optional extras

E. Don't fit lighting, don't fit pick-ups.


SB

I think that's a pertinent question and probably extremely difficult to reach a consensus.  I'm not particularly interested in lighting and others clearly feel the same, but I can see where it enhances some modellers experiences.  I can't help thinking option D would allow for the best of both worlds.

 

Definitely D for me. I'd happily say E, but I appreciate some like it.

In fact I'd say I was DECBA in that order.

Quote from: Steven B on October 03, 2023, 09:29:43 AMFrom what has been said here and elsewhere, Revolution saw no issues with the free-running of the Mk5s on their test samples. It remains to be seen if the problem's due to a change at the factory (like the Rapido Conflats) or down to the bogies not being put together properly.

How much of the problems are down to the electrical pick-up and how much is due to the internal bearings remains to be seen. Internal bearings are hard to do. Neither Farish or Dapols class 220 were particularly free running.


What might be worth further discussion given the problems with the lighting limitations on DC is whether as modellers it's something we want. Personally I don't what interior lighting and would either remove it or permanently switch it off. Dapol's approach of light bars available as a separate item is probably the best solution for most.

I can see several different approaches, the question is are there any others and which would we as modellers prefer?

A. factory fitted lights with magnetic wands - current Revolution and Rapido approach but need turning off again every time power is reapplied on DC.

B. Push the boundary further - fit the magnet controlled lights but power from a battery so they don't turn off when track power is removed. Recharging from the track would be a bonus.

C. Factory fitted lights with switches to turn lights on and off, either needs roof removing or vehicle lifting from track to access switches that might compromise roof or underframe detail.

D. Don't fit lighting - add the pick-ups but sell us light bars as optional extras

E. Don't fit lighting, don't fit pick-ups.


SB

I will firstly admit to having no skin in the game as far as these particular coaches are concerned and on the plus side I do admire the level of detail and finish shown on the pictures I have seen.

In terms of the options above, as a preference I am firmly in the "E" category personally, as I see it most of us run our trains in conditions where we want to see them, and this involves the whole layout being lit in some way to represent daylight, so the need for lights in coaches will in most cases be limited. I do not want to pay extra for all the paraphernalia involved in lighting coaches for something I will not use. In this respect for me Farish have it right, producing quality models without such gimmicks.

The above is just my opinion and I accept there will nonetheless be those who do want them, and so I would regard option "D" as an acceptable compromise so long as in doing so the running quality of models were not negatively impacted. This appears easy enough to achieve with outside bearings using split insulated pinpoint axles, but I am far from convinced it can achieved with inside bearings, where the bearing surface has to be sufficiently large to afford reliable current transfer. Inevitably even the most perfect bearing surface if it is large will create more friction, and when the surface (and/or other factors) are less than perfect (as they will be in the world of mass production inevitably) people will get the results being witnessed with these Mk5 coaches, where remarkably some are reporting even the four coach Fort William set is a struggle for some otherwise quite competent locos.

On the not so positive side I have a couple of other observations with regard to this specific matter. Firstly, I am somewhat surprised from seeing posts on forums that people appear to be encouraged to try and fix the coaches with problems themselves rather than the default being to return them (as is of course their right under consumer law if an item isn't fit for purpose). Secondly, if the problem is as widespread as it appears would it not be sensible to at least have a pause on shipping further coaches out to customers/retailers until remaining models have been checked and confirmed to be OK (or in the worst case not)? I do appreciate people will have been looking forward to receiving their coaches but clearly from what we are seeing already, keen anticipation has in many cases turned into disappointment and surely knowing that the "pause" button needs to be hit?

I do appreciate that if there wasn't a perceived demand for these kind of features they wouldn't be attempted, and the challenges both technical and logistical, of producing such complex models to a certain price-point should not be underestimated. However against that I do think the inherent risk of pushing boundaries too far is what is being seen here, and I would reflect that without the lighting feature the coaches would still very likely have been extremely well received but minus the headaches and subsequent disappointment.

Roy

I would like to suggest an extra item above, which I will refer to as C2. As for C, but with DIP switches for DC, so they are either on or off, with the wand as optional. In addition, a Next18 decoder socket with blanking plate for DCC control of all lighting effects.

I suspect too, that bearing surfaces would need to be hard wearing and this may be conducive to electrical connections.