Quote from: Dorsetmike on January 11, 2023, 03:29:57 PM
if he does every GWR tank, should be easy enough, the only differences are number of wheels and either 0-6-0 saddle tanks or prairie side tanks

Very funny  Of course you mean panniers rather than saddle tanks.

And of course the LMS only ever built Jinties, the LNER never built anything small, relying on pre-amalgamation engines, and the southern only built 4-6-0s which nobody wants to take on as a manufacturer!

Bob

Quote from: Bob G on January 11, 2023, 03:44:33 PM

Quote from: Dorsetmike on January 11, 2023, 03:29:57 PM
if he does every GWR tank, should be easy enough, the only differences are number of wheels and either 0-6-0 saddle tanks or prairie side tanks

Very funny  Of course you mean panniers rather than saddle tanks.

And of course the LMS only ever built Jinties, the LNER never built anything small, relying on pre-amalgamation engines, and the southern only built 4-6-0s which nobody wants to take on as a manufacturer!

Bob

Well, the LMS got it right first time. Didn't have to keep fiddlin' to get one that worked properly.

Quote from: Roy L S on January 11, 2023, 03:15:06 PM
I have heard it said that Sam/Sonic is sticking to tank locos for the foreseeable future(anyone who knows more please correct me if wrong) 2 out of the three we already know about are GW, a company which from all accounts Sam has a particular liking for. These will only be sold via Rails of Sheffield.

So, in terms of the everyday tender-locos such as UM have produced (even ones with simple motion) from what I understand Sonic will not be filling the void anytime soon, so dreams of RTR locos like the J36 and D34 "Glen" RTR or even a "new" (and much more mainstream) state of the art J26/J27 seem remote

One of the ways UM made things work for small scale is very careful choices and compromises
- Always tender driven using I think one of two tender motor mechanisms
- Simple diecast shells and locomotives chosen to be castable
- Black, black or black and later mostly green
- Standard wheel choices
- No complicated to assemble motion

It's more like a pizza business. You may sell 50 different pizzas but if you look hard they are all actually just a rearrangement of a fairly small set of toppings. That's the only way a lot of pre 3D print kit stuff works out, or small rtr. Indeed until quite modern times it's how big RTR worked too.

This btw is also why GWR coaches always get the short end of the stick. The LMS built stuff to standards so if you stick with P2/P3/P4 the number of parts to assemble almost any coach is quite small. The LNER had a few phases but a lot of standardisation and everyone wants a rake of Gresley teak stock not the weird stuff. The Southern stuff was very standardised, as were many of the companies that fed into it. The GWR made things up as they went along. That makes it very much harder to do a range of GWR coaches.

Not quite what you are asking for but....

Quote from: Roy L S on January 11, 2023, 03:15:06 PM
RTR locos like the J36

Not RTR, but there's a 3D printed J36 available, and needs only a (very minorly modified) Farish C class chassis, and is an easy build if you don't want to go mega on detail. Of course, you can go mega too...:

Quote from: Roy L S on January 11, 2023, 03:15:06 PM
and D34 "Glen"

Admittedly difficult this one, but there was the Graham Hughes kit.

Quote from: Roy L S on January 11, 2023, 03:15:06 PM
RTR or even a "new" (and much more mainstream) state of the art J26/J27 seem remote

Again not quite what you're asking for, but as well as the UM J26/7 there's the Nu-cast kit which is still moderately common out there, as well as plenty of UM produced models for superdetailing.

J27_final2 by Dr Al 60103, on Flickr

I've got no less than 5 of these now.... 

Sure, I know these aren't what you are asking, but all we ask for is RTR....which isn't feasible, and means we all just end up with the same stock. There are other (admittedly more involved) options.

Cheers,
Alan

3D printng might be the future but it has a long way to go!
The metal printed items might be superb (I haven't seen any) but the resin ones that I have purchased aren't.
The problem I have with them are the visible lines of print layers and lack of smoothness.

Quote from: Dr Al on January 11, 2023, 07:40:49 PM
Not quite what you are asking for but....

Quote from: Roy L S on January 11, 2023, 03:15:06 PM
RTR locos like the J36

Not RTR, but there's a 3D printed J36 available, and needs only a (very minorly modified) Farish C class chassis, and is an easy build if you don't want to go mega on detail. Of course, you can go mega too...:

Quote from: Roy L S on January 11, 2023, 03:15:06 PM
and D34 "Glen"

Admittedly difficult this one, but there was the Graham Hughes kit.

Quote from: Roy L S on January 11, 2023, 03:15:06 PM
RTR or even a "new" (and much more mainstream) state of the art J26/J27 seem remote

Again not quite what you're asking for, but as well as the UM J26/7 there's the Nu-cast kit which is still moderately common out there, as well as plenty of UM produced models for superdetailing.

J27_final2 by Dr Al 60103, on Flickr

I've got no less than 5 of these now.... 

Sure, I know these aren't what you are asking, but all we ask for is RTR....which isn't feasible, and means we all just end up with the same stock. There are other (admittedly more involved) options.

Cheers,
Alan

Yes I have noted that J36 3D body.  The initial c£20 was very reasonable.  But I then costed in the basic extras - smokebox door, funnel, dome, safety valves, whistle, buffers, and handrails from NBrass and they added up quite quickly.  Add to that buying a C Class to use its chassis, if I can find one.  I found one or two on FleeBay, at £100+.  Total cost not over much less than a new complete C class, or other 060 from Farish.  and there is the work to do to make and paint and number it.  I do like the end product in the photo but  I will stick with my adapted UM J25, in spite of its compromises!  It is a pity the modeller preparing the print did not make it more complete - funnel dome,  smokebox door, safety valves as Rudi Newman does with his K!/2/4 and Glen.  That would cut the cost a bit.

/soapbox time, and probably 

Quote from: Portpatrick on January 11, 2023, 11:34:41 PM
Yes I have noted that J36 3D body.  The initial c£20 was very reasonable.  But I then costed in the basic extras - smokebox door, funnel, dome, safety valves, whistle, buffers, and handrails from NBrass and they added up quite quickly.  Add to that buying a C Class to use its chassis, if I can find one.  I found one or two on FleeBay, at £100+.  Total cost not over much less than a new complete C class, or other 060 from Farish.  and there is the work to do to make and paint and number it.

This is therefore a bargain for a kit, IMHO, and a totally unique result.

As others have alluded, matching larger manufacturer RTR with either small RTR, or bespoke single builds (as these are) in terms of straight cost is simply implausible and ultimately impossible.

The J26 kits I have have cost a pittance - 30 quid for a donor replacement chassis, one kit cost 8 quid, others have cost more (maybe up to 35 quid), but were built already, so stripped back, so also had chassis that could then be refurbished and sold on. Detail parts under a tenner - so total built money wise 50 to 60 quid. So cheaper than a less detailed UM RTR. Savings can often be gained by buying bad liveries (i.e. ones that are less popular) for donor models, or damaged models. The J26s use those cheap SR trainset locos, which have a normal Farish 94xx chassis contained within, and a cheap body which can be discarded or sold on. These are cheap as it is, and if you get one with a toast drive gear, can be even cheaper. Of course you need to be capable of changing the gear.

This itself is part of the chase and the fun of sourcing parts, finding what you need at the price you need - and while I'm working that, I'm researching the model I want to build.

Crucially, for me, money isn't the full point. Of course, it's a problem given our high inflation times, and most can't ignore it and have to think very seriously about anything spent; but there also has to be recognition that there's more to this than just the base cost. How do you value the uniqueness of the result, the personal satisfaction of the build and the resulting model? After all, the modelling aspect is not meant to be a chore... But ultimately, these aspects are impossible to generalise and then monetarily consistently quantify, and are different for everyone, as they are fundamentally individually subjective.

The problem with mainstream RTR is that it implicitly devalues the awareness of difficulty of actually building stuff - most buyers just have no clue what is actually involved* - folk then baulk at the cost of kits, or bespoke builds, which then belittles the skill of the builders. Occasionally I've saved an old kitbuilt or detailed model from a disinterested secondhand market, precisely because I can see that someone, somewhere once valued that, once spent time and effort on it. That's not to say there's not skill in designing, making RTR, but that is amortised across a much larger number of models, perhaps even for many many years. If you were to ask for an RTR loco of quality we currently have over 1 loco, or even 100, the price would NOT be 165quid or whatever. It would be.....eyewateringly in the thousands to tens of thousands of pound type level. Bachmann said they've invested £1M in the recent all revised class 47 diesel tooling suite, for example.

The fact I have 65222 "Somme", a model I doubt anyone else on the planet has, a small unique tribute also to a family member who was was there in WW1, and it monetarily cost me maybe £140 all in, I feel is a very decent value**.

I'm sure others will not agree, and that's fine, though it shuts down a route to something different than run of the mill RTR.

Cheers,
Alan - who has had it suggested to him in several instances already, that he should take over UM.... 

* Physics teaches us that it is always easier to destroy than to build...so building should be valued...

** and don't forget the other poor sap. The monetary cut those who design and post 3D models on Shapeways actually get, doesn't remotely recognise their talents either.

Quote from: Dr Al on January 06, 2023, 04:22:57 PM

Quote from: Thorpe Parva on January 06, 2023, 11:55:14 AM
Ordered yesterday & arrived today.

I'm astonished. As well as perplexed. 

I gave up years ago trying to buy new as it simply seemed impossible. Trying again this week given it's the last chance, and I've phoned him no less than ELEVEN times, including twice immediately after a previous attempt when I got the engaged tone, and not once have I managed to get him to pick up! It's literally.....hopeless! 

Sorry, while it's a regret that UM are ceasing, I will be in the comical position of having literally never bought from him, despite being a prolific detailer of the models and owning a fair number.

Back to the secondhands I guess.....   

Cheers,
Alan

Sorry Alan I cannot agree.
Just because the phone line is engaged it does not necessarily mean that Colin was present and answering a call, but that someone else is phoning him.
I phoned last week to discuss a repair and he answered immediately.
This week I phoned again on Wednesday to order a new D16 and pay for the repair both arrived today Thursday.
I don't call that hopeless.
Maurice C.

Quote from: mojo on January 12, 2023, 12:34:12 PM

Quote from: Dr Al on January 06, 2023, 04:22:57 PM

Quote from: Thorpe Parva on January 06, 2023, 11:55:14 AM
Ordered yesterday & arrived today.

I'm astonished. As well as perplexed. 

I gave up years ago trying to buy new as it simply seemed impossible. Trying again this week given it's the last chance, and I've phoned him no less than ELEVEN times, including twice immediately after a previous attempt when I got the engaged tone, and not once have I managed to get him to pick up! It's literally.....hopeless! 

Sorry, while it's a regret that UM are ceasing, I will be in the comical position of having literally never bought from him, despite being a prolific detailer of the models and owning a fair number.

Back to the secondhands I guess.....   

Cheers,
Alan

Sorry Alan I cannot agree.
Just because the phone line is engaged it does not necessarily mean that Colin was present and answering a call, but that someone else is phoning him.
I phoned last week to discuss a repair and he answered immediately.
This week I phoned again on Wednesday to order a new D16 and pay for the repair both arrived today Thursday.
I don't call that hopeless.
Maurice C.

Call blocking possibly 

Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 12, 2023, 12:37:09 PM
Call blocking possibly 

Based on what*....the number is different to one I used before to (have the same result many years earlier - also hopeless)....and it's not one anyone knows if they somehow had a vendetta.....lol.....

*...and if he's blocking mobiles , or just letting them ring out then that's madness - who has a landline nowadays....

Sure, it may not have been him when it was engaged, but regardless, 11 times reduces the statistical likelihood that it could have been missed - especially given they were on days that others have reported phoning, getting through and ordering immediately.

Sorry, I can only go on what I find, and that is: hopeless, and the business is therefore lost.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: mojo on January 12, 2023, 12:34:12 PM

Sorry Alan I cannot agree.
[/quote]

Afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that, as above.

Quote from: mojo on January 12, 2023, 12:34:12 PM
This week I phoned again on Wednesday to order a new D16 and pay for the repair both arrived today Thursday.

That's another on the one of the days I phoned - which rather increases the likelihood that the engaged was one of you guys...!

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on January 12, 2023, 12:17:18 AM
/soapbox time, and probably 

I am not farmiliar with a J26 kit you refer to.  But it sounds as if you did well finding a 94xx chassis cheaply.  It is increasingly difficult.  I purchased a GF Hall last year as I needed the chassis to replace the very wobbly one under my BHE B12.  It was mid priced.  I have a 94xx is the spares box as the chassis is a spare for 2 of my butchered/kit locos.

I agree with your implication about the satisfaction of building.  In the days of an earlier layout some 25% of my locos were kit built or butcher jobs. In spite of the examples I described in NGS journal 3/22 it is a much smaller proportion now.  But yes I have over the years built many loco kits, loads of NGS wagons and a modest number of coaches.  Less in the 2000s as my Essential Tremor made life increasingly challenging.  Since 2020 and the successful neurosurgery the experts allowed on my right hand, life is a bit easier again - hence some of what I described in my article.  And I have followed an article from some years ago to produce a couple of 120 DMUS, though they will be replaced when Revolution are able to produce theirs.  But cost is an increasingly important factor.  Hence my comments on the J36.

In many ways I would like Rudi's Scottish version of the K2, under rule 1.  but like the C Class,  N class locos are not easy to find.  I saw one the other day at the Maidenhead show for nearly £100.  Ouch.  At least Rudi's prints do not requires so many additions as the J36.  Like you I do wonder what the  designers make on these 3D prints.  I might ask Rudi next time I see him at the club.

I would add a comment I made on FB.  I am influenced by the late Bill Oldroyd.  I met him at shows in the late 1960s, early 70s.  He was a real master at butchering RTR and kits into other things.  An easy one was the Triang L1 into a 2P, although Hornby as it became had produced one by the time I was ready to have a go myself.  Hence years ago a Std 5 made by shortening a minitrix Brit body and marrying in to a Farish B5 chassis.  Or a much cut down Farish 61XX married to a minitrix Ivatt tank with simplified valve gear - a very presentable 55XX.  I sold both!

Quote from: Portpatrick on January 12, 2023, 01:31:12 PM
I am not farmiliar with a J26 kit you refer to. 

It's fairly old, but good quality Nu-Cast kit for J26 or J27 - they are more common than you might think, quite often seen built secondhand on old silver wheeled chassis. I've build a couple and rebuilt several more - indeed two in the last year, but I've not updated workbench (because of busy-ness, and also because again....the number of folk that seem interest is.....small....).

Quote from: Portpatrick on January 12, 2023, 01:31:12 PM
But it sounds as if you did well finding a 94xx chassis cheaply.  It is increasingly difficult.  I purchased a GF Hall last year as I needed the chassis to replace the very wobbly one under my BHE B12.  It was mid priced.  I have a 94xx is the spares box as the chassis is a spare for 2 of my butchered/kit locos.

I'd agree that the secondhand market has definitely changed over the last decade - there's stuff that is increasingly difficult to get. That said, the 94xx chassied SR tanks are out there - there was one on ebay for 28 quid working.............yesterday. So they are out there to be snagged!

Of course, people like me are 100% guilty in not helping, by buying up these when we see them, even when I don't immediately need one. I didn't buy the 28 quidder though...!

In terms of stuff like your wobbly hall - don't discard that! It can probably be repaired....and in the worst possible case there'll certainly be parts of value in it to transmogrify something else, or repair another hall.

Quote from: Portpatrick on January 12, 2023, 01:31:12 PM
Less in the 2000s as my Essential Tremor made life increasingly challenging.  Since 2020 and the successful neurosurgery the experts allowed on my right hand, life is a bit easier again - hence some of what I described in my article.  And I have followed an article from some years ago to produce a couple of 120 DMUS, though they will be replaced when Revolution are able to produce theirs.  But cost is an increasingly important factor.  Hence my comments on the J36.

Of course, physical health problems are a factor that may prevent building, and that of course is not what I get at.

The general thing is that statistically, so few build anything, and with the internet it's so much easier to feel that all folk shout about is RTR RTR RTR, I want more RTR  . And then complain vociferously when RTR turns up and has faults, inaccuracies, problems or whatever  .

Quote from: Portpatrick on January 12, 2023, 01:31:12 PM
In many ways I would like Rudi's Scottish version of the K2, under rule 1.  but like the C Class,  N class locos are not easy to find.  I saw one the other day at the Maidenhead show for nearly £100.  Ouch. 

This is where we may diverge - £100 for a high probability of a superb running baseline chassis, is not cheap, but to me a price that I'd expect to pay. And bear in mind that's for the loco, you may recoup some of that selling on the parts of it you then wouldn't use on a kitbuild. It sounds like you could therefore get the parts for a K2 for something like £125-£160 - which is sort of current RTR loco prices.

Bear in mind prices are rapidly changing with inflation and the secondhand demand also - I'm still adjusting to £160ish being the new-normal for RTR...

Quote from: Portpatrick on January 12, 2023, 01:31:12 PM
I would add a comment I made on FB.  I am influenced by the late Bill Oldroyd.  I met him at shows in the late 1960s, early 70s.  He was a real master at butchering RTR and kits into other things.  An easy one was the Triang L1 into a 2P, although Hornby as it became had produced one by the time I was ready to have a go myself.  Hence years ago a Std 5 made by shortening a minitrix Brit body and marrying in to a Farish B5 chassis.  Or a much cut down Farish 61XX married to a minitrix Ivatt tank with simplified valve gear - a very presentable 55XX.  I sold both!

Shame you did in some ways - of course they might be overshadowed by a modern RTR, but they would clearly have been something unique, that would have been interesting to see!

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on January 06, 2023, 06:01:49 PM
I don't think 11 attempts, and twice, minutes after it was engaged, is unlucky - for some reason he just refuses to pick up.

Apologies if this has already been suggested, but have you considered writing him a letter? He would then be able to reply at his convenience.

Quote from: keithfre on January 12, 2023, 02:00:57 PM

Quote from: Dr Al link=topic=57395.msg785679#msg785679 date=1673028109 :D
I don't think 11 attempts, and twice, minutes after it was engaged, is unlucky - for some reason he just refuses to pick up.

Apologies if this has already been suggested, but have you considered writing him a letter? He would then be able to reply at his convenience.

As Colin has now sold out of all his remaining stock this is all a bit academic now!  (Unless you were writing a letter to offer to take over the business...  )

For the record though, I'd always previously bought Union Mills locos by sending a cheque in a letter, but when the notice of Colin's imminent retirement was posted above I called him for the first time ever, on my mobile.  First attempt the phone rang and rang until I gave up.  Left it an hour, called again in the late afternoon, and he answered in two rings.  I ordered my four locos, wished him a happy retirement, and the locos arrived 36 hours later!  That level of service will be missed...

My interpretation of the non-answering is that some landline phone systems only give an engaged tone to the first caller to ring whilst the phone is engaged.  If there is more than one caller in the queue they just get RTNR - "ring tone no reply". The ring tone you hear in this situation isn't from the phone you are calling, but from the repeater bell in the exchange (or electronic equivalent).  But really bad luck Dr Al.

Richard