You can now pay in the UK a quarter of a 1000 pounds! £250 for a dapol or farish sound fitted loco
In the USA they start at half that and in Germany around £150.
I just imported a sound fitted Piko from germany much cheaper and was not charged vat.
Even with vat they are cheaper from the USA.
So why are UK customers being ripped off?

Where is the difference in cost between the UK loco and your Piko example? Is it cost of the basic loco or is it the additional charged on top of that for sound?

What is the price for each with and without sound? For each, what is the difference in £s and % terms between sound and non-sound versions?

Quote from: PLD on May 23, 2021, 08:30:01 AM
Where is the difference in cost between the UK loco and your Piko example? Is it cost of the basic loco or is it the additional charged on top of that for sound?

What is the price for each with and without sound? For each, what is the difference in £s and % terms between sound and non-sound versions?

The locos themselves and the sound decoders are cheaper abroad, seem to be related to UK markups?

Not exactly sure why they are marked up so much in the UK; most are now made in China and are imported in bulk.

£250 for sound is not a rip off when a good quality sound chip like a Zimo costs £99 with a sound file loaded, a speaker possibly £10 and if you can't do a custom fit the cost of someone doing it for you (say £50 depending on the work). That's £160 plus the cost of a loco, discounted say £130 = £290.

A Next 18, speaker fitted sound chipped loco at £250 looks quite a bargain next to that.

Comparing a Piko model is not relevant, it is not a British loco it has a different market, possibly potential for greater sales volumes in the USA brings the cost down.                         

I just don't get why it has to be concluded that British models are a rip off. In global terms the market is small with production runs of maybe 4000 covering a number of liveries. I suspect there were a thousand 8Fs produced (Bachmann do 1008 per livery). Of the £250 £50 is VAT straight away, the rest covers design, tooling, production, shipping, manufacturer, Bachmann and then retailer profit margins.

Nobody is getting rich it is just the price it needs to be in order to be viable. I guess everyone is free not to buy if it is too pricey as with most things!

Regards

Roy

Are we doing this again?

OK here goes:

I don't believe anyone is being ripped off.

The markets abroad - especially in the US - are much, much larger than the UK N gauge market (which also interoperability due to the scale difference) and this means production set up costs (tooling, tampo masters, production line management) are amortised across far more models.

Also, are you sure European are cheaper in general?  Some might 'start' at £150 but is that where the bulk of the market is?  I just looked and the next European model I am interested in (forthcoming Arnold FS E656 Bo-Bo-Bo with sound) is listing at around £230-240 in most places.

By the same token the latest Farish 31 with DCC sound is £225 at Rails, so comparable.

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Roy L S on May 23, 2021, 08:49:51 AM
£250 for sound is not a rip off when a good quality sound chip like a Zimo costs £99 with a sound file loaded, a speaker possibly £10 and if you can't do a custom fit the cost of someone doing it for you (say £50 depending on the work). That's £160 plus the cost of a loco, discounted say £130 = £290.

A Next 18, speaker fitted sound chipped loco at £250 looks quite a bargain next to that.

Just built a fully working arduino/ motor /wifi fitted dcc JMRI controller for £39.
Works great using a mobile phone free android engine driver app, that's what I call a bargain!
UK market needs a home-based company to design/manufacture sound decoders but I am sure Farish and Dapol pay a fraction of £99 to have china factory-integrated sound.

Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 09:06:19 AM
Just built a fully working arduino/ motor /wifi fitted dcc JMRI controller for £39.
Works great using a mobile phone free android engine driver app, that's what I call a bargain!
UK market needs a home-based company to design/manufacture sound decoders but I am sure Farish and Dapol pay a fraction of £99 to have china factory-integrated sound.

That's great.  Most of us don't have that sort of expertise.

But let's imagine you are producing that controller en masse as a business.  You could just sell for the cost of parts; but let's say you want to earn a salary that reflects your skill and is needed to pay the bills. 

How many hours did it take you to build?  1 hour?  2 hours?  Do you have to test every one?  What about returns, and product support?  Answering customer emails? Do you want some money for R&D of new products, an office or warehouse, advertising, basic back office functions to sustain your business?  To fund this how much would you need to sell your £39 controller for?  £100?  £150?  £250?

Yes, of course Farish and Dapol pay a fraction of £99 for sound - that is how manufacturing and retail businesses work.

Profit isn't a dirty word; in fact it is essential to ensure a company survives and can develop new products.   I appreciate that the cost of some items is more than you would like to pay, but that is just the cost; you aren't getting 'ripped off.'

Also, sound files for UK models are usually produced in the UK by the likes of Legomanbiffo (used by Revolution) or Paulie Banger.   There are others.  Their files are flashed into chips in China and then installed in the models there, since that is far cheaper than flashing them here and sending them all to China for fitting, or paying someone here to fit them to thousands of models arriving.

cheers

Ben A.

We have Hornby TTS. They're less than £40 a decoder. You can get a OO gauge 66 with sound for under £100, so your Piko loco was a massive rip off.

It's an apples:oranges comparison, and utterly pointless.

I'll probably regret even getting involved in this discussion because it really is a waste of time.

YOU have managed to do that but presumably

YOU dont need a business premises to allow this to happen
YOU don't need to pay yourself minimum wage
YOU dont need to pay your pension contributions
YOU dont need to pay NI contributions
YOU dont need business insurance
YOU dont need to employ people
YOU dont need to comply with employment laws
YOU dont need ANYTHING a business requires

EVERYTHING is expensive to manufacture and create in Britain hence the price reflection. Companies need to make profit to enable reinvestment to an ever demanding market.

I NEVER understand the complaints about the price with everything to do with this hobby.

If its deemed too expensive dont bother!!!

Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 09:06:19 AM

Just built a fully working arduino/ motor /wifi fitted dcc JMRI controller for £39.
Works great using a mobile phone free android engine driver app, that's what I call a bargain!
UK market needs a home-based company to design/manufacture sound decoders but I am sure Farish and Dapol pay a fraction of £99 to have china factory-integrated sound.

So go on then, start the company up. I guess you won't for the same reason no one has: you aren't going too get rich, no one is especially if concentrating on the N gauge UK market.

It seems every other week someone is moaning about the cost of British N and every time the answer is the same and it won't change. The British N gauge market is very small and cannot be compared to other countries. A run of a 1000 items is always going to cost more than a run of 10,000 when set up costs are the same, it's simple economics.

Manufacturers have to set a price that will cover their development and production costs, return a profit for future investment and be at a level their marketing research says it will sell at.

As for the cries of "rip off" it is a hobby and absolutely no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 09:06:19 AM

Quote from: Roy L S on May 23, 2021, 08:49:51 AM
£250 for sound is not a rip off when a good quality sound chip like a Zimo costs £99 with a sound file loaded, a speaker possibly £10 and if you can't do a custom fit the cost of someone doing it for you (say £50 depending on the work). That's £160 plus the cost of a loco, discounted say £130 = £290.

A Next 18, speaker fitted sound chipped loco at £250 looks quite a bargain next to that.

Just built a fully working arduino/ motor /wifi fitted dcc JMRI controller for £39.
Works great using a mobile phone free android engine driver app, that's what I call a bargain!
UK market needs a home-based company to design/manufacture sound decoders but I am sure Farish and Dapol pay a fraction of £99 to have china factory-integrated sound.

Indeed, absolutely no doubt as regards wholesale discounts.

My comparison in that respect was the option of doing the conversion yourself on a British model or having it done (until recently the only options) as against what you can now get RTR and reflecting on that.

Maybe seven years ago I spent over £300 on a sound fitted Farish Ivatt 2-6-0 - not a rip off it was the going rate. Today if I shop around I can buy a sound fitted 8F or Class 31 for about £240.

Sound in British models has got significantly cheaper, I bought a Zimo sound chip for my lovely little C Class - £99 with the file loaded. The loco cost £116, so for a little over £200 I have a sound fitted loco maybe 30% cheaper than the Ivatt I bought (my second sound loco) all those years ago.

I think that my comparison surely more relevant to the "rip off" argument than comparing to overseas markets where many other considerations also apply and one isn't comparing apples with apples.

I have no doubt that buying a thousand decoders or whatever brings the unit price down, 10,000 doubtless more. Is there a large enough market for a UK manufacturer? I honestly don't know the answer to that question.

Regards

Roy

Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.

All markets are now international so any UK company first needs to produce a reliable loco mechanism and then sell it globally around the world with different bodies and affordable add-ons.
It can be done but it's taking a long time.

Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 10:13:33 AM
Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.

All markets are now international so any UK company first needs to produce a reliable loco mechanism and then sell it globally around the world with different bodies and affordable add-ons.
It can be done but it's taking a long time.

With all due respect as consumers the Market is now way past "near enough" generic chassis and inaccurate bodies made to fit these days. Each chassis is accurately made bespoke to a loco, in the case of steam driving wheels with authentic number of spokes, balance weights etc.

No way people will be happy to go back to the days of (e.g.) Minitrix where an approximation of a British loco was made for a continental chassis. The models' prices these days reflect this level of accuracy in the cost to research and produce, it is what the Market now demands.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 10:13:33 AM
Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.

All markets are now international so any UK company first needs to produce a reliable loco mechanism and then sell it globally around the world with different bodies and affordable add-ons.
It can be done but it's taking a long time.

I am not sure what was unclear about my earlier explanation for prices, but I'll try again.

*  The markets in the US, Japan and, to a slightly lesser extent, Germany are far larger than the UK market, so they enjoy economies of scale.  Typical UK production runs for new models are 1000-2000 units.  Typically Kato produce no fewer than 10,000 in a single livery.

*  Britain has an oddball scale - 1:148 -  so there is very little commonality between potentially shared components.  And one reason Kato mechanisms perform so well is that they are engineered skilfully and precisely for each model; as soon as you try to share components (beyond simple things like motors, LEDs or gears) you introduce the potential for error either knowingly or unknowingly.  I am not aware of a single chassis used by any manufacturer for both UK and international items of stock.  It isn't starting to happen.

So the question is: Are manufacturers going to compromise their products and/or invest in huge overproduction of stock to save you a few pennies or pounds on a discretionary purchase?   Unlikely, is my view.

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Ontrack on May 23, 2021, 10:13:33 AM
Well it's already started in USA, Germany, and Japan in N gauge.
Highly respected companies like Kato are producing sound upgrades for around £50 retail.
It's time the UK did the same in my opinion.

Can you provide a link to the Kato on-board sound upgrades, please? I cannot find them.

Just to show how ridiculous international comparisons are, Minitrix have just issued a recolour of a non-sound non-DCC French diesel model for 235 euros.
No sound option. But another 35 euros for DCC/Selectrix.

https://www.dm-toys.de/en/product-details/Minitrix_16706.html