Hi everyone,

I am relatively new to n gauge modelling - I have a design for a layout based on a particular station and line in Norfolk during the pre-grouping era. From research, I think the locos I want on the layout from that time were Little sharpies (2-4-0 locomotives) or Claud Hamilton (4-4-0 locomotives).

I know pre-grouping locos in n-gauge are more unusual - I'm looking for some advice on how I could get locos like these - is there anything like that already made on the market, any I could customise or is a complete scratch build needed? Help much appreciated please,

Nick

Union Mills do a 'Claud'. Not as detailed as some of the other manufacturers but robust and relatively inexpensive.
UM also do a B12, but those are the only Ready-to-Run GER locos I can think of...

The only R-t-R 2-4-0 I know of is an early Germanic prototype looking nothing like any British prototype!

Quote from: PLD on October 26, 2020, 07:51:34 AM
Union Mills do a 'Claud'. Not as detailed as some of the other manufacturers but robust and relatively inexpensive.
UM also do a B12, but those are the only Ready-to-Run GER locos I can think of...

The only R-t-R 2-4-0 I know of is an early Germanic prototype looking nothing like any British prototype!

I wonder if a GWR 14xx/48xx chassis could be reversed and suitably adapted to give a reasonable resemblance. The driving wheels would be a tad small but possibly not enough to be blatantly obvious.

The Claud and B12 are in the condition they ran in LNER and BR days. To backdate them you will need to add Belpaire firebox and slotted valances over the coupling rods. There are probably other changes needed but these are the most obvious.

Here are two more N Gauge 2-4-0T locos that have been produced in recent years, both from Japan and of Japanese prototypes but they were built by British companies.

Micro Ace A0276  rebuilt Vulcan Class A1


World Kogei Sharp Stewart Class 160

Quote from: msr on October 26, 2020, 08:47:22 AM
Here are two more N Gauge 2-4-0T locos that have been produced in recent years, both from Japan and of Japanese prototypes but they were built by British companies.

Micro Ace A0276  rebuilt Vulcan Class A1

(image)

World Kogei Sharp Stewart Class 160

(image)

They run on N-gauge track.   But they're not to 1:148, which is UK N.

Some bits of Japanese modelling uses a track gauge and adjusts the scale to match the gauge, particularly if the model was for a narrower track gauge in its prototype form.   
In this case, I understand the prototype was for 3ft6in track, so the scale would come out as 3ft6in = 1067mm, so as 1067/9= 118.5, or near enough 1:120.   Which is close to European TT scale (note that UK TT is nearer to 1:100, its the same discrepancy as OO vs. HO and UK N vs. European N).   And 1:120 is roughly what this model looks like to me  (I have one of the Vulcan A1's). 

Its a nice runner, a nice model of a 19th Century small loco made for export in the UK.   But its way overscale if run alongside anything made to 1:148 scale, and better suited to a 1:120 diorama.


Back at Nick's question,  frankly no chance of looking remotely scale in N gauge by cobbling things from other N gauge locos.  Remember that UK pre-grouping locos are much smaller than those which followed.   
You could look at 2mm finescale, where there are people with experience of building such small locos, and possibly there are etches for a few things which could help.   But 2mm finescale is a whole different ball game of approach and time to build things   Try the listings from Eveleigh Creations for a few GER and M&GNR items - but remember they're just etches, you've got to get (and make) other bits, and build them.  He offers a Sharpie 2-4-0 etch, which will be accurate, but I'd caution its not the first thing you should attempt as an etched item.  Add to the etch: motor, gears, wheels, detailed fittings (dome, chimney, whistles, axle boxes, etc..).   
One could change scale, which makes things bigger, but the same issue of lack of prototype candidates in ready-to-run still applies, so some things will be either scratchbuilds or fairly advanced etched kits. 


- Nigel

I can appreciate the effects of scale but the Japanese seem to take a more pragmatic view. Whereas they stick to their favoured 1:150 as opposed to the UK 1:148, the difference is so tiny that I doubt anyone will notice in practice. However, the use of TT would certainly be out of keeping, as I think were the early attempts by the Japanese such as Tomix to enter the Thomas market.

However, my examples are not toys but models that I feel compare well against the British equivelants. Rather than enter a discussion about precise dimensions I have included some shots of the 2-4-0 tanks I mentioned above with an old Poole Farish generic suburban coach behind and two Bachmann-Farish Class 08s to the right. I feel the Japanese locos compare favourably and I don't mind them running alongside their British cousins. Of the two, the Micro Ace A1 No.1 is significantly bigger, but also a fraction of the price.

Here are some shots from various angles to help you avoid bias due to the effects of perspective.

Although modelling the GER is not easy with nothing RTR (ignoring the Farish Holden Tank) some seem to dismiss it rather quickly and even though I'm a member of the 2mm SA 2mm is not the only answer. I also concur with @msr regarding the scaling of the Micro Ace and World Kogei offerings, it's dangerous to assume they are of a different scale and can be the basis of various scratch builds.
Although LSWR this started life as the Micro Ace 2-4-0 and is perfectly scaled to 'N':


Indeed I have a second one which will become this when it reached the top of my to do pile although I may try to get my hands on the World Kogei offering:


Unfortunately the ex GER RTR offerings from UM are of rebuilds so would need work to back date them but it depends on how accurate you are planning to be. The Little Sharpie will be a challenge but David Everleigh does offer etches in 2mm. The Dapol 14xx mentioned earlier won't work due to the large weight forming part of the chassis filling the tanks where, as you know, the Sharpie doesn't have tanks.
That said there are things you can build or modify and I've done a few. Have a look at my thread here for some examples: https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26055.0

Forgot this was on a different thread but here is my M15 build: https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=16194.msg160850#msg160850

Quote from: thebrighton on October 26, 2020, 12:17:59 PM
The Dapol 14xx mentioned earlier won't work due to the large weight forming part of the chassis filling the tanks where, as you know, the Sharpie doesn't have tanks.

Rats, didn't know the tanks were full of weights. Twas just a thought anyway 

Quote from: chrism on October 26, 2020, 12:25:32 PM
Rats, didn't know the tanks were full of weights. Twas just a thought anyway 

Yep, bit of a blow really:

Quote from: thebrighton on October 26, 2020, 12:32:35 PM

Quote from: chrism on October 26, 2020, 12:25:32 PM
Rats, didn't know the tanks were full of weights. Twas just a thought anyway 

Yep, bit of a blow really:

Is it just weight or is it also the motor magnets?

If the former, maybe a Dremel (or file if the chassis is fully stripped down) could attend to it provided one then puts sufficient weight in the body to counteract the loss of weight?

Quote from: chrism on October 26, 2020, 12:43:55 PM
Is it just weight or is it also the motor magnets?

If the former, maybe a Dremel (or file if the chassis is fully stripped down) could attend to it provided one then puts sufficient weight in the body to counteract the loss of weight?

It's just weight but also holds the motor in place but the whole chassis is the wrong way round as the motor would be the smokebox end which makes it a non starter.

The point I've been making about the Japanese models is the body scale - they make the scale of the body to suit the track gauge, so a 3ft6in prototype (the locos in question) will not be to 1:150, but closer to 1:120.   
I've not found a drawing quickly, but did find a few photos online of the real locos.  This site has one, showing the diminutive size of the 2-4-0 (no 110) compared to some averagely normal locos, and another with the information board next to it.  Imagine an 08 alongside that noticeboard !

https://www.japanvisitor.com/japan-museums/ome-railway-park

There's nothing wrong with using the mechanisms if the wheel diameters and wheelbases are near-enough for the target model.



Dapol 14xx chassis = wasting time for a GER 2-4-0. 



- Nigel

Quote from: Nigel Cliffe on October 26, 2020, 12:57:34 PM
The point I've been making about the Japanese models is the body scale - they make the scale of the body to suit the track gauge, so a 3ft6in prototype (the locos in question) will not be to 1:150, but closer to 1:120.   
I've not found a drawing quickly, but did find a few photos online of the real locos.  This site has one, showing the diminutive size of the 2-4-0 (no 110) compared to some averagely normal locos, and another with the information board next to it.  Imagine an 08 alongside that noticeboard !

I've just re-checked the Micro Ace loco against the drawing of the GER loco in the photo below as it was a while since I originally earmarked it for rebuild. As it stands the model is 2mm longer and 2mm higher than the drawing of a smaller loco so I reckon 1:150 is far more likely than 1:120 but, hey, N gauge is a compromise anyway

Quote from: Nigel Cliffe on October 26, 2020, 12:57:34 PM
The point I've been making about the Japanese models is the body scale - they make the scale of the body to suit the track gauge, so a 3ft6in prototype (the locos in question) will not be to 1:150, but closer to 1:120.   

FWIW the MicroAce model is actually explicitly noted by the manufacturer as 1:120 scale; see the documentation downloadable from here:

http://www.microace-arii.co.jp/release/pdf/A0275.pdf

where it says "当製品は1/120スケールです" ("this product is 1:120 scale"). I suspect it was a compromise to be able to manufacture a viable model of a locomotive of that size; it's the only Japanese RTR TT scale I know of.

Not sure about the World Kogei kits.