Does anyone know how the devil you get copyright permission to reproduce old, really old photos.

I'm doing an article for publication, hopefully, in the NGS Journal and I'd like to try and include a photo of the prototype. There's a reasonable amount of photos out there, and all are a minimum of 50+ years old, in some cases 90+ years old.

So, has anyone got any ideas? I've been emailing owners/hosts of websites and getting absolutely no response. It's highly frustrating!



Alternatively, someone please send me a new wall, I've worn this one out.

This is clearly a bit of a minefield or a can of worms ...

There is some guidance in the Intellectual Property Office website -

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/481194/c-notice-201401.pdf

The paragraph on page 3 "What if I do not know who the copyright owner is?" may help.

Good luck.

You might be able to claim fair dealing.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright#non-commercial-research-and-private-study

Do you know who took the original photograph(s)? Basically, copyright protection will last for 70 years after the death of the photographer, but if you don't know who that was, then you can argue fair use of a photograph in the public domain, or "creative commons".

If you've been emailing websites where the photograph is offered for sale, and you've had no response, it's highly likely that those websites have no idea who the copyright holder is either, and therefore won't respond to your question.
They're selling reproductions of a photograph and are claiming ownership of the IP when in fact they have no explicit rights to reproduce either.

I've seen transport-related photographs offered on websites with a "watermark" on the preview when I know very well that they are not the copyright owners nor have a license to reproduce. There are some websites here in the US selling reproductions of posters from the National Railway Museum, and I know perfctly well that they are not an official licensee.

I'd just go ahead, especially if your target is a hobby journal like th NGS. Just credit the photographer or agency if you know either. It's not like you're running off a million copies and selling them. If you want, use the credit "Retrieved from [url]. 2019" to cite the source where you found the image, or if it was a physical copy, use "Retrieved from Anyshire County Library Archives, 2020".

In other words - great ethics, but don't sweat it.

Thanks for the info everyone. The photo's in question have all been on other people's blogs/archives/websites, but without exception none of the photos could have been taken by the owners of those 'domains'.

I'll have to have a good read of the info you've all sent me and double check the metadata behind the images to see if that throws up any clues.

Quote from: emjaybee on May 30, 2020, 08:02:32 AM
I'll have to have a good read of the info you've all sent me and double check the metadata behind the images to see if that throws up any clues.

I doubt that'll help - not with images over 50 years old, considering that digital cameras have only been available for around 30 years.

The document linked to by @strain above is the guidance to go by in the UK and EU, the section on "orphan works" being the most pertinent. Be cautious of guidance on practice in other territories - it is the law of the jurisdiction in which the work is published that applies, even if the work is distributed in other countries.

In short document your communications to the websites and their (lack of) response, then present that to the IPO with your intended use and you should be fully covered to use for the specified purposes.
I believe that "closed distribution list" publications such as Society in-house journals that are only available to members are still covered so the "fair use" or "research and private study" exemptions do not apply.

My reading of the non-commercial research and private study is that it would not grant you an exemption from getting permission for use in the society journal. Fair use etc can be very different in different jurisdictions - my (limited) understanding is that the USA has a much broader fair use exemption than the UK/EU.

I agree with PLD that if you want to do it correctly then the orphan works route is the right way.

Other thoughts are can you check if the images are being hotlinked from elsewhere ie served on a web page but hosted elsewhere to that web page? Or can you run a reverse image search on Google to find other instances of the same image?

We've had this issue (particularly for older rolling stock) sometimes and sometimes you end up not being able to use images, other times you persevere and eventually find a way to get in touch with the copyright holder.

Cheers Mike

Quote from: emjaybee on May 29, 2020, 11:26:49 PM
I've been emailing owners/hosts of websites and getting absolutely no response.

I know it's not quite the same thing, but some months ago I wanted to quote a couple of sentences from a novel I was reading, into a printed work I was doing. (It is that long since, I can not remember why now). Reading the bit at the front of the book about no copying by any means etc., without permission of the publishers, I sent an email to the publisher - still waiting for a response.