Totally agree with Roy, I think there's a bit of confirmation bias there. I certianly don't think there's any active move away from steam and/or toward diesel and electric.

When was the last electric loco produced? The 86 about 8 years ago? I realise that's ignoring units, but still...

Hatton's (should) have reams of market data on what sells, and whilst there will no doubt be some variation in scales it stands to reason that a big main line loco will sell better in N than OO, so to that end the Garrett seems a sound choice, based on their historic data.

We can speculate for ages about why it's not been more popular. It's easy to say "it was a poor choice of model, and X would be more popular", but it's difficult not to conflate that with "I want X, whilst I don't want what they've offered".

O guage is an interesting one as a comparator, I'm prepared to wager that the margins are higher and the required production runs are smaller. I've heard it being said it's far less price sensitive too. It's never going to be a cheap facet of the hobby, so people are more accepting of that. I have to say I think £275 for the Dapol 66 seems an absolute bargain and is quite likely to tempt me!

Response I got
" Hi Aaron, the project is not crowdfunded, it is just our standard pre-order process but we do need to ensure we enough orders for the project to be viable.
I guess we will just have to wait and see with fingers crossed

Quote from: Dr Al on December 10, 2019, 09:59:58 AM
I am not sure I believe the N Gauge market is too small for this - one only needs look at the growth of O gauge in the recent years - surely this is still a comparable and small market compared to N? It has many barriers to folk actually adopting it that N doesn't (space, cost even the 'budget' models).

However, it does seem to be the 'in' thing right now which manufacturers unlike N.

So it seems a semi-perfect storm here:

- poor initial mechanical choice of single motor
-
Cheers,
Alan

As I've suggested already this is a complete furphy. In effect saying that the various US articulateds such as Athearn's Challenger or Big Boy (that are all bigger than the proposed Garratt) are lemons because they only have one motor, when they are amongst the some of the best steam designs in recent years. I wonder if Mr Kato will cop some flak if his proposed Big Boy only has one motor?

They're very different models though. You put one motor in a Big Boy and you can put all the weight centrally over up to 16 large driven wheels.

Put one motor in a Beyer Garratt and you likely have the majority of the weight in the wrong place, and you're only driving 6 wheels. It's more akin to putting a tender at each end of a Big Boy and then putting the motor only in one of those.

Two thoughts on this thread.
1. Although there is a lack of pre-nationalisation motive power being produced normally these days, we still see lots of new private operator wagons coming on to the market both by the majors and limited runs. Perhaps both the Garrett and GF's 8F are trying to tap into this area?
2. If a manufacturer wants to know who does what in n gauge would it not make sense to get some stats from the NGS after all they have asked us for what we model for decades so they should know not only who does what but what trends are happening.
Anyway I have ordered two, if produced I just hope they will pull some of the huge number of coal wagons I have accumulated over the years.

I think the one or two motor issue is more about weight distribution physical resistance, and angular resistance.

The Big Boy and the like, also Broadway centipede models have close articulation points so only have minimal angular resistance where as the garrets have widely spaced articulation points so the non powered end pivot points on curves is not in line with the powered bogie and track beneath it, the effect being they are partially being pushed sideways to the line of the track causing resistance.  Like a lorry trying to jackknife.

I think the other feed of experience is those of us who have built Garratt locos with and without two motors.  Single motor models are frankly a waste of a potentially good model.

Quote from: Bingley Hall on December 10, 2019, 12:04:28 PM
As I've suggested already this is a complete furphy. In effect saying that the various US articulateds such as Athearn's Challenger or Big Boy (that are all bigger than the proposed Garratt) are lemons because they only have one motor, when they are amongst the some of the best steam designs in recent years. I wonder if Mr Kato will cop some flak if his proposed Big Boy only has one motor?

I don't agree, because of below:

Quote from: njee20 on December 10, 2019, 12:09:00 PM
They're very different models though. You put one motor in a Big Boy and you can put all the weight centrally over up to 16 large driven wheels.

Exactly this. Furthermore, putting a central motor in the Garratt and trying to drive both ends is basically impossible, as there's nowhere to put the necessary driveshafts at the smokebox end - the prototype just doesn't have anywhere where this could be credibly hidden.

The US models are bigger - but that plays to their advantage in having more space to put mechanism etc.

Thus, dual motor for this prototype is the only credible approach, and plenty of buyers spotted this immediately (not to mention those of us who've built Garratt kits).

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Bingley Hall on December 10, 2019, 12:04:28 PM

Quote from: Dr Al on December 10, 2019, 09:59:58 AM
I am not sure I believe the N Gauge market is too small for this - one only needs look at the growth of O gauge in the recent years - surely this is still a comparable and small market compared to N? It has many barriers to folk actually adopting it that N doesn't (space, cost even the 'budget' models).

However, it does seem to be the 'in' thing right now which manufacturers unlike N.

So it seems a semi-perfect storm here:

- poor initial mechanical choice of single motor
-
Cheers,
Alan

As I've suggested already this is a complete furphy. In effect saying that the various US articulateds such as Athearn's Challenger or Big Boy (that are all bigger than the proposed Garratt) are lemons because they only have one motor, when they are amongst the some of the best steam designs in recent years. I wonder if Mr Kato will cop some flak if his proposed Big Boy only has one motor?

I don't buy the one motor theory either. As previously mentioned, there are N steam locos out there that will pull vast rakes that only have one motor. As also previously mentioned, there's plenty of scope for useage as opposed to some other diesel prototypes.

Quote from: emjaybee on November 29, 2019, 11:09:02 AM
I've been pondering this project over the last day or so and been reading with interest what other people's point of view is.

Quote from: njee20 on November 28, 2019, 11:02:36 AM
The consistent theme among these models is that they always seem to be a bit weird. The Fell, GT3, Beyer Garatt etc. You'd think a wagon would be a lower-risk way to dip a toe into N gauge, although that didn't work for Cavalex either, so perhaps not.

I would say that there's a big difference between the Fell, GT3, and the B-Garrett.

The Fell had a lifespan of seven years, the GT3 had a similar lifespan, whilst the Garrett's were around for thirty one years. And of course, the numbers produced, 1, 1 and 29.

I think you also need to look at aesthetic when trying to sell model locos. Aficionados may well slather over a Fell or a GT3, but I've seen enthusiasts refer to the Fell as "a loco only it's mother could love", whilst I don't know about 'The Chocolate Zephyr', it's more like a 'Flying Turd'. The Garrett is a nicer looking, maybe because it's more traditional.

I appreciate that wagons could be a 'way in' to N gauge manufacture, but they'd just get lost in the myriad of other manufacturers, we're not short of wagon producers.

On the subject of there being plenty of OO gauge collectors who just have display models, I think you're quite correct. I also think there's a N gauge market for that.

I can see the Garrett being something that modellers would like to have in a cabinet on display. On a personal note, I've been getting excited because Kato are considering doing a new Big-Boy, and if they do, I'm having one, even if I've got to sell a kidney to do it. I'd love to have a display cabinet with a Garrett and a Big-Boy side by side.

I do, though, think the comments about Hattons advertising are correct. They don't really seem to be pushing it, and it's not easy to find on their website unless you search for it.

I live in hope that it makes it through.

My personal opinion is far less complicated. With all the current instability in the future of the country, Brexit, General Election, etc. people are just sitting tight on their money.

I'm self-employed, doing property maintenance. My phone lines are ringing far less than usual, and I mean FAR less than usual. I've spoken to other people in similar work and they are all saying the same.

People have no idea what is going to happen, so they're being financially cautious. If this project had appeared four years ago, I think it'd be a done deal by now.

Note to Mods: I have this post doesn't breech the politics issue, it's not intended to be a political comment.

Quote from: Roy L S on December 10, 2019, 10:14:40 AM
What could they sell to complement the Garratt?? Nothing Farish that's for sure!

I think this is largely a non-issue. The Garratts primarily pulled long coal wagon trains, and there's plenty of manufacturers that produce suitable wagons - Peco, Dapol as well as Farish, and NGS in terms of kits.

I suspect a loco like this is a little different to say something like an HST, where there is real need for matching stock at the time of manufacture.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 12:18:54 PM
I don't buy the one motor theory either. As previously mentioned, there are N steam locos out there that will pull vast rakes that only have one motor. As also previously mentioned, there's plenty of scope for useage as opposed to some other diesel prototypes.

But when digging into the detail of said locos, it's not clear they are comparable, as above. The Garratt would in effect be nothing more than a long 0-6-0 if single motor powered, with a likely heavy and draggy dead second end. Those who've made the kit and cheaped out on a single chassis have learned this the hard way.

Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 12:18:54 PM
My personal opinion is far less complicated. With all the current instability in the future of the country, Brexit, General Election, etc. people are just sitting tight on their money.

Maybe, but the money was certainly flying at Warley!

Cheers,
Alan

I think the fact that a lot of enthusiasts saving money to go to a once a year show are spending money at one event doesn't really indicate the financial health of the country.

Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 01:06:15 PM
I think the fact that a lot of enthusiasts saving money to go to a once a year show are spending money at one event doesn't really indicate the financial health of the country.

No, not of the country necessarily but it does probably say something about the demographic of railway modellers of whom a significant proportion have a higher than average disposable income.

Roy

Quote from: Roy L S on December 10, 2019, 01:21:14 PM

Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 01:06:15 PM
I think the fact that a lot of enthusiasts saving money to go to a once a year show are spending money at one event doesn't really indicate the financial health of the country.

No, not of the country necessarily but it does probably say something about the demographic of railway modellers of whom a significant proportion have a higher than average disposable income.

Roy

No, it says something about the small proportion of railway modellers who actually went to the show. A small proportion of which are N gauge modellers.

I'm not sure that's a huge factor really. In the last 4 years we've seen the rise of O gauge, which is hardly a cheap facet of the hobby. If modellers were truly 'tightening their belts' it's hard to imagine that.

Given the older demographic of your average railway modeller I definitely agree that they have a higher than average disposable income. I think perhaps people may be shying away from large purchases due to uncertainty, but I think that's temporary, people want to live their lives, and I don't think that's a factor for the majority of purchasers on what are comparatively low value items in the grand scheme of things.

Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 01:23:13 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on December 10, 2019, 01:21:14 PM

Quote from: emjaybee on December 10, 2019, 01:06:15 PM
I think the fact that a lot of enthusiasts saving money to go to a once a year show are spending money at one event doesn't really indicate the financial health of the country.

No, not of the country necessarily but it does probably say something about the demographic of railway modellers of whom a significant proportion have a higher than average disposable income.

Roy

No, it says something about the small proportion of railway modellers who actually went to the show. A small proportion of which are N gauge modellers.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree. Warley is attended by many thousands which would be a good sample size to start with.

Amongst those that are railway modellers in a proportionate sense it is pretty likely to be a fairly decent representation of railway modelling as a whole in terms of demographic, affluence, scales modelled etc.