Quote from: Roy L S on August 12, 2019, 06:26:36 PM

Quote from: class37025 on August 12, 2019, 06:22:40 PM
Gibb's rule 13 

True indeed.....

If Gibbs' Other Rule #1 had been adhered to, Gibbs' Rule #13 would be moot.

I think Hattons have attempted to use one of the 285 Ferengi Rules Of Acquisition and come unstuck. I'm just not sure which one

Am I the only one to think that Hattons becoming a manufacturer could be a total game changer for the industry?

Look at the push that Dapol entering the N gauge market had on the models Bachmann were turning out. Hattons have a trump card of being a seller as well as the manufacturer, so could really start to challenge and put the squeeze on existing manufacturers. Given Bachmann's protracted delivery times, Hattons could have a real chance of becoming a much bigger player, relatively quickly.

Oddly, I think Bachmann's response plays into Hattons hands in some ways - it was stated that the reason Hattons went to self manufacture was the unreliability and ability to get stocks of things like the 66s, primarily from Hornby. How true this is, is of course debatable, but Bachmann are now facing competition from above (Hattons) and below (Hornby) on that model.

I think where they will see it is in relatively new entrants to the hobby - those looking for their first models, who will find big shifters like Hattons online first, and will likely browse their store early in their modelling career, and with Bachmann absent, they are likely to see potential sales shift over to other manufacturers. Sure, experienced modellers will shift their Bachmann purchases over to other suppliers.

I think Bachmann must now be feeling the squeeze - with new entrants popping up all over to challenge their previous dominance in N and OO - we've RevolutioN, Accurascale, Cavalex, Sonic Models, Hattons, as well as commissioners like Rails and Kernow, as well as more established competitors Hornby and Dapol, and more recently Heljan. Some change from back in the late 1990s, early 2000s where it was basically Bachmann or Hornby in OO, and Farish with no competitors in N.

Hattons have the distinct advantage of cutting out the middle man in terms of selling from their own store - meaning that their own sales of these must enjoy a notably higher margin. It's an interesting approach, which must be lucrative.

Interesting times....interesting times....

Cheers,
Alan

Interesting?  Yes.

There may be another side to Hattons' philosophy though.

Going back to the demise of the Signalbox/ Modelzone/ Amerax, when the Signalbox in Rochester was perhaps Hattons major competitor, I was told that one of the problems had been that the success of Amerax was dependent on them having a flow of product from China for distribution in the U.K.  This supply of this product (radio-controlled models) had reduced and they could not afford the rent on their 47? Modelzone shops when they were getting nothing to sell.
Whether this is true or not, one can imagine Hattons' worry about shifting product to maintain income if, as seems to be the case at present, the flow of new models is slowing down and some of those entering the market are not making their products available to them. So what do you do?  Introduce a new line over which you have at least some control and a larger profit margin may be the answer. We have already seen the major retailers getting involved in the second hand market probably for the same reason.
We were told at TINGS last year that Bachman were not interested in N Gauge as it represented only 20% of their U.K. sales. I thought that maybe what he meant was that Bachman were not interested in the U.K. as that represented only a very small percentage of their global sales and their development resources may be better spent elsewhere - say U.S.A?

Will we ever know the whole story?

I am sure it was a dispute based about infidelities between staff members and subsequent hurt feelings as well as aspects of revenge.

Quote from: NinOz on August 13, 2019, 04:03:49 AM
I am sure it was a dispute based about infidelities between staff members and subsequent hurt feelings as well as aspects of revenge.

I don't see it that way at all. It is about Bachmann as an established manufacturer with a full range of models, a design team, a repair team, a marketing team etc having the  high overheads of a traditional manufacturer. A retailer just commissioning models where it sees potential and making a batch will have much lower overheads and be able to sell products more cheaply. It could well be that the Hattons approach will be successful and we might well see the industry change - arguably it has already changed with Revolution trains. It is quite probably today's technology that is allowing this change to happen. Bachmann probably don't have the ability to reduce their costs to be able to compete with these new entrants.
Interesting times.

Perhaps some good will come out of it and it will spur bachmann/Farish into not taking so long between anouncment and stock delivery like they do at the moment.  How many years have we been waiting for the new 8F, and delivery has just been pushed back another 6 months, if Hattons can get their factory to produce on time then I can see them overtaking at least Farish who seem unable to produce anything new and are struggling to get stock of their existing models out of their own Factory, how long have they been out of stock off their own 3F & 4F current models, plus many others, all showing as out of stock at many dealers.

If they can't supply their own models to the dealers they should expect some more enterprising dealers like Hattons to look into supplying their own stock instead.

Farish my well find itself one of the minor players in the n-gauge UK market if it does not pull its socks up soon.

Paul

Quote from: NinOz on August 13, 2019, 04:03:49 AM
I am sure it was a dispute based about infidelities between staff members and subsequent hurt feelings as well as aspects of revenge.

Just like any long running soap opera. This one will roll and roll.

I'm over it 

Quote from: Dr Al on August 12, 2019, 11:12:22 PM
Am I the only one to think that Hattons becoming a manufacturer could be a total game changer for the industry?

But they aren't becoming a 'manufacturer', are they? They are directly commissioning models from a factory in China, rather than buying from another company which commissions from a factory in China. Of course, Bachmann / Hornby aren't manufactuers either - they commission models from Chinese factories. Dapol seem to be manufacturing a few things themselves again now, but the majority is still commissioned from China.

It remains to be seen whether, given that they will probably be a small customer compared to others which the factory has, they will see the issues with slipping delivery dates which Dapol seem to encounter. Bachmann ought to be in a better position there, as the factories are owned by the same parent company, but in practice they also seem to see delays.

Maybe we should be looking for a new word to describe those who arrange for manufacturers to make products to designs/specifications the client has provided.  "Commissioners" wouldn't appeal to those familiar with UK taxation.  "Instigators" has pejorative connotations.  Any other suggestions?

Quote from: davidinyork on August 13, 2019, 11:30:52 AM
Bachmann / Hornby aren't manufactuers either

Not true for Bachmann - Bachmann are owned by Kader industries ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader ), who own their factories.

As such Bachmann differ from Dapol etc, but I don't see that Hattons differ from say Dapol. We'd all call Dapol a manufacturer, so Hattons too by logical extension.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on August 13, 2019, 11:41:21 AM

Quote from: davidinyork on August 13, 2019, 11:30:52 AM
Bachmann / Hornby aren't manufactuers either

Not true for Bachmann - Bachmann are owned by Kader industries ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader ), who own their factories.

As such Bachmann differ from Dapol etc, but I don't see that Hattons differ from say Dapol. We'd all call Dapol a manufacturer, so Hattons too by logical extension.

Well, you might call companies who commission things a manufacturer, but it's not actually accurate and I don't think you can speak for everyone.

As I said in my post, I am aware that Bachmann have the same parent company as the factories, but they still commission the models from another company in the same group and that doesn't seem to avoid delays (presumably because other companies in the group are commissioning larger quantities so get a higher priority).

Quote from: SheldonC on August 13, 2019, 11:38:07 AM
Maybe we should be looking for a new word to describe those who arrange for manufacturers to make products to designs/specifications the client has provided.  "Commissioners" wouldn't appeal to those familiar with UK taxation.  "Instigators" has pejorative connotations.  Any other suggestions?

Brands?

Quote from: davidinyork on August 13, 2019, 11:49:15 AM
Well, you might call companies who commission things a manufacturer, but it's not actually accurate and I don't think you can speak for everyone.

I'm not sure it really matters the exact words? Generically most folk in the hobby call Dapol a manufacturer, Hornby a manufacturer as they do Bachmann. Hattons are developing products, via whatever mechanism, so to the end user they are effectively a manufacturer as well - the key will what they deliver at what quality, price point, timing and customer service and resulting in what market impact. Bachmann have history of needing a lot of competition to really react (look at the early 2000s with Farish and the speed of releases then), and even then they are undeniably slow.

As such I think we need these kind of shake ups in the markets.

So far in OO Hattons seem to be hitting the mark if the 'P' class and the Barclay's are anything to go by.

Interesting times.

Cheers,
Alan