Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2019, 12:55:23 PM
It's not strange at all. We're just not all the same. It's not a difficult concept.

I do find it strange - the idea that building and achieving anything less than current RTR is substandard enough to not even bother trying is something I don't really connect with - nothing I've built is at RTR standard; but so what.

If folks don't find it for them, then fine - but give it a try (with a realistic starter project) first! There's lots of folk out there who can help, encourage and advise when stumbling blocks are reached. IMHO, don't use RTR standards as reason not to have a play and try new things.....you might surprise yourself.

Cheers,
Alan

Its exactly two years since I returned to model railways after a thirty year gap. During that time a big change was the emergence of DCC. As a newbie with a clean slate I decided to go down that route. My first real topic was when I asked the collective where I should position the track feeds on my first ever layout. To be honest I was more than a little surprised by several argumentative replies. I became bemused by some of the acerbic comments exchanged. Eventually I quietly left by the back door leaving them arguing the toss.

The title of this topic is "State of British N Gauge". I'm not at all confident that the future of the hobby is all that safe with some of the attitudes displayed. Several of the posts have little or nothing to do with the OP's opening statements.

For the record, I'm much nearer the "train set user" than the "rivet counter" end of the scale but I do enjoy running my RTRs and can make a mean Metcalfe cardboard model. 
My mate has a fabulous exhibition layout that he's shown all over the UK and Germany. Its standard is mind bogglingly high and yet he makes positive statements about what I'm trying to achieve. By all means enjoy your own areas of interest in the hobby but don't decry what others prefer.

Alec.

Hear, hear! That's all I'm trying to say, it's not an attitude I embody, but I'll ferociously defend anyone who only wants RTR!

Hi,
Call yourself very very lucky....kits or not kits, handmade, ready made ecc.
Here , who wants modelling Italian style...is forced to open wallet very large...or nothin ...,and  what you pay a lot often is not up to the height of value...seeyou last set of three by ACME - FS X coaches ..
Here only desert!
Cheers

Marco

Quote from: Invicta Alec on January 10, 2019, 01:14:06 PM
The title of this topic is "State of British N Gauge". I'm not at all confident that the future of the hobby is all that safe with some of the attitudes displayed. Several of the posts have little or nothing to do with the OP's opening statements.

I think the attitudes shown actually demonstrate the health of the hobby - folk passionate enough about it to debate, question, and disagree (fair enough). If nobody bothered to reply then I'd be much more concerned, that'd indicate a decay of interest in the hobby.

The title is very broad, so I think it's all relevant, but the one thing I really don't like are the implicit and explicit discouraging comments with regards trying new things, kitbuilding and the likes - we should be encouraging folks; not putting them off, no matter what standard they're working to or what standard they're first attempts actually attain.**

That encouragement (on all levels) is crucial in growing the hobby or maintaining it IMHO - and that is hugely relevant to the ultimate "state of British N".

Cheers,
Alan

** Interestingly I am a member of several model aircraft forums, and the attitudes are very different in this respect. Virtually no discouraging comments for folks putting up their very first builds, and only oodles of praise, much encouragement and constructive comments on improvements and methods to try next time, no matter what the standard is. Something we should aspire to IMHO....

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Literally no one has said "don't try kits", or "you should only have RTR stuff" or anything of that ilk. They really haven't, please find a single remark discouraging people from trying their hand at kits or 'new things' or disparaging those who do? It's really unhelpful people saying that it's being said, because it isn't.

All I've said is that some people want stuff to be up to RTR standard, which is fine, and therefore may be put off kits. Some kitbuilders (not on this thread) can also be disparaging towards those who only want RTR, calling them "box openers". This is unnecessary, as neither is a more 'valid' approach.

I've seen loads of "I've just had a go at x" posts, probably more on Facebook admittedly, and in general people are encouraged, obviously. Look at all the layout topics. You're looking for negativity where none exists.

Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2019, 01:55:04 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Literally no one has said "don't try kits", or "you should only have RTR stuff" or anything of that ilk. They really haven't, please find a single remark discouraging people from trying their hand at kits or 'new things' or disparaging those who do?

Quote as requested:

Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2019, 09:39:39 AM
That isn't really the point I was trying to make. If I buy a £10 wagon kit and it looks 90% of a RTR one then I'm happy. Perhaps after building 30 of them I'd be 95% of RTR.

....

I wouldn't want to spend £700 on a kit unless I knew I could at least get to 100% of RTR quality - ie indistinguishable.

Sure, that's your personal opinion, but equally, it's discouraging (my interpretation) - people new to the hobby (or new to kitbuilding) reading that may assume that's the norm, especially when bounded by all the others saying " I can't" (more often as Paul said, "I won't"), and that they will be discouraged enough never to get involved in whichever aspect it pertains to.

I say the opposite - try and what ever you attain is a good personal achievement. 90%, 95% RTR - so what!!!!!

Interestingly it's the Facebook model aircraft groups that are the most positive. Britmodeller can be less so.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2019, 01:55:04 PM
Literally no one has said "don't try kits", or "you should only have RTR stuff" or anything of that ilk. They really haven't, please find a single remark discouraging people from trying their hand at kits or 'new things' or disparaging those who do? It's really unhelpful people saying that it's being said, because it isn't.

I share your frustration.

Responses about kits being an alternative to RTR seem to come from two sorts of modellers:

(1) Those who want to encourage people to build kits;   
(2) Those who see themselves as somehow part of the railway modelling elite. 

Nobody here ever has said don't build kits. The flip side thought has to accepted though: not everyone can build kits, or more specifically, will get the standard they want from a model through kit building. It may be they don't have the experience, the skills, the tools, or whatever. Their choice, their circumstances, their hobby.

Can we just accept that there are gaps in the RTR range, and discussions about what these are worth having.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: Dr Al on January 10, 2019, 01:42:16 PMThat encouragement (on all levels) is crucial in growing the hobby or maintaining it IMHO - and that is hugely relevant to the ultimate "state of British N".

Cheers,
Alan

** Interestingly I am a member of several model aircraft forums, and the attitudes are very different in this respect. Virtually no discouraging comments for folks putting up their very first builds, and only oodles of praise, much encouragement and constructive comments on improvements and methods to try next time, no matter what the standard is. Something we should aspire to IMHO....

Alan, to echo that, I'm a long time member of an international astronomy forum. It has roughly 125,000 members worldwide. The encouragement and advice particularly to newcomers is inspiring. Yes, a very different attitude prevails there too, that's probably why I was taken aback with some crusty responses to my beginner topic here.

Alec.

Quote from: Invicta Alec on January 10, 2019, 02:06:47 PM
that's probably why I was taken aback with some crusty responses to my beginner topic here.

I think I missed that topic - hope you weren't put off too much - there are folks willling to give advice here - it's still still very positive place for N gauge discussion!

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on January 10, 2019, 02:03:51 PM
I say the opposite - try and what ever you attain is a good personal achievement. 90%, 95% RTR - so what!!!!!

Because these are different outcomes for different situations. If I'm great with scenics and operation, and want to buy (and perhaps tweak) RTR stuff to complement my accurate reconstruction of a GWR branchline in steam days, then a whitemetal or plastic kit that's inexpertly made will shatter the illusion. It's not the engineering that matters, but the atmosphere.

But if I'm someone who never quite gets a layout finished, but loves building kits and seeing them run even on plain un-ballasted track across a bit of plywood, then that's something different. I'm enjoying the engineering, not the illusion. It doesn't matter if the loco isn't a perfect replica, just so long as I'm pleased with what I've created.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: Dr Al on January 10, 2019, 02:03:51 PM

Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2019, 01:55:04 PM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Literally no one has said "don't try kits", or "you should only have RTR stuff" or anything of that ilk. They really haven't, please find a single remark discouraging people from trying their hand at kits or 'new things' or disparaging those who do?

Quote as requested:

Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2019, 09:39:39 AM
That isn't really the point I was trying to make. If I buy a £10 wagon kit and it looks 90% of a RTR one then I'm happy. Perhaps after building 30 of them I'd be 95% of RTR.

....

I wouldn't want to spend £700 on a kit unless I knew I could at least get to 100% of RTR quality - ie indistinguishable.

Sure, that's your personal opinion, but equally, it's discouraging (my interpretation) - people new to the hobby (or new to kitbuilding) reading that may assume that's the norm, especially when bounded by all the others saying " I can't" (more often as Paul said, "I won't"), and that they will be discouraged enough never to get involved in whichever aspect it pertains to.

I say the opposite - try and what ever you attain is a good personal achievement. 90%, 95% RTR - so what!!!!!

Interestingly it's the Facebook model aircraft groups that are the most positive. Britmodeller can be less so.

That's selective quoting, as you well know my comments were specifically in the context of that £700 kit, as an example of why people may not want to build kits, not that they shouldn't, that's a significant distinction.

This is totally stupid, you're trying to find issue where there is none.

I'm happy to build kits. I like repainting things. I apply the extra detail packs. I renumber models. I weather models.

I have no issue with people who don't.

NeMo's got it right.

Quote from: NeMo on January 10, 2019, 02:11:14 PM
Because these are different outcomes for different situations. If I'm great with scenics and operation, and want to buy (and perhaps tweak) RTR stuff to complement my accurate reconstruction of a GWR branchline in steam days, then a whitemetal or plastic kit that's inexpertly made will shatter the illusion. It's not the engineering that matters, but the atmosphere.

I really don't disagree with this. I guess the step that I see being missed out is that you will have to build a number of said kits to gain that experience - everyone was a beginner once. I'm just keen to encourage folk not to be put off taking that first step, as it's clear some are.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2019, 02:14:37 PM
That's selective quoting, as you well know my comments were specifically in the context of that £700 kit, as an example of why people may not want to build kits, not that they shouldn't, that's a significant distinction.

I'm quoting how I interpreted it - so perfectly valid, and relevant as this is how those who could be discouraged could also interpret it.

I have no issues, and am not getting wound up by anything (it seems you are - good to have passion!). My original post only highlighted kits being available so folks know about them, as so many don't (backed up by Steve), 3 pages later (and no further posts from me until 2 hours ago) brought this, so I'm certainly not trying to find issue - it's others that have brought this debate to the fore.

Cheers,
Alan

I think we have now gone a long way off topic.

I read the original post as a summary of what is generally available RTR, and aimed my first post as a reply in that vein; which is why I said I had excluded kits from my post, as I wished to put forward a reasoned 'wish list' for ex LNER locos to be considered in the future for RTR-or why, in the case of the LNER, it would be difficult to justify as RTR. I am aware of the kits mentioned, and have built many, as well as some not mentioned; I appreciate that it is the only way, other than a commission, to obtain items of stock that are not RTR. I was also aware that a number of this forum do not wish to kit build, for whatever reason, and again, that was why it was written with RTR in mind.

I think that this Forum and hobby is wide enough to encompass many aspect of our hobby, so let us agree to disagree, and perhaps someone else can put reasoned wish lists for other Companies/Eras/Areas. Mike/Red Death had asked for potential submissions for him to consider, in another thread; my initial reply was also weighted to this request.

Martyn