Hi
Saw the vid clip of the 17 on Dave`s phone on Sunday running up and down on a bit of straight track.
The model and two 3d prints on display with a pile of NQP OO models. Dave did note that he had sold less than 50% of dutch mermaids and the APT in N a low take up he quoted 11 to 1 in favour of the OO model!  His general view was N was in a bad way compared to OO.  Take that as you will - clearly being commercially sensitive he did not say how many and how much had been raised on his email plea but did say roundly 150 had not replied.
Robert 

Quote from: njee20 on February 05, 2018, 08:34:52 AM


There is no evidence of Dave doing a runner with people's money, or anything similar.

ask this to the people who ordered a tamper years ago.

but anyway, I have made my point really clear I think, everybody is entitled to make his er her's own decision. I will buy when available but I will not give him any money upfront, this is MY own personal decision.

As the spot lights are now on me as being the bad guy I think it's better that I leave it here as it is, If you feel that he's a very trust worthy person please do so, I have got my own opinion.

cheers.

M.

I think crowd funding will feature more and more in the future. With N gauge volumes being fairly low the risk to investment is relatively high and the return relatively low. You can't blame manufacturers, especially one man bands, for not planning large investments in new N gauge tooling. I was under the impression that the tooling was complete for the class 17 but it sounds like it might not be. Changing the means of funding part way through seems a bit odd but it probably just reflects the state of the market at the moment. You just can't afford to invest cash in a project if you aren't pretty sure of getting a healthy return on your investment. Crowd funding of course takes away that risk.

I have no interest in a class 17 (even though they look cute) but I will be happy to pay cash up front to get the tooling started for Dave's king when asked. The success or failure of the King project may well be pivotal to the future of new N gauge models.

Quote from: Maurits71 on February 05, 2018, 08:44:48 AM

Quote from: njee20 on February 05, 2018, 08:34:52 AM


There is no evidence of Dave doing a runner with people's money, or anything similar.

ask this to the people who ordered a tamper years ago.

but anyway, I have made my point really clear I think, everybody is entitled to make his er her's own decision. I will buy when available but I will not give him any money upfront, this is MY own personal decision.

As the spot lights are now on me as being the bad guy I think it's better that I leave it here as it is, If you feel that he's a very trust worthy person please do so, I have got my own opinion.

Not my intention at all Maurits, N'Thusiast do certainly have history, perhaps I should have said "DJ Models haven't done a runner with anyone's money"!

I was one of the people who ordered the tamper, and would not give any money up front to this person again. So, lets leave it at that.

My personal opinion of the DJM models situation is that they have lots of projects "in progress" and, 'pro-rata', not many coming off the other end.

Revolution have a few projects "in progress" and in relation to that they have a high proportion of completed projects.

I think your average Joe would be more comfortable and supportive of DJM if there were less projects on the go, better updates on progress - even if its just "project x is still in tooling development", and a more consistent business model rather than pre-orders then crowd funding then whatever next. It gives the impression of a shambolic company that's struggling.

I really want DJM to succeed, I desperately want a decent N gauge J94. If he wants better support he needs to be clearer about the business and progress and communicate better.

Hi everyone,

Just popped by to clarify a couple of things and post the update i posted on another forum a few minutes ago..

1) i never stop anyone taking photographs of my models and it's not in my interest to do so. The 92's and 17's etc were photographed a lot over the weekend with me often stopping the turntables they were on and letting people not only take their shots, but manhandle them, and pose them for the best angles.

2) The class 17 in all it's guises (in the last 2 years) shown since i got them are ALL plastic from the tooling. I have never had a class 17 in 3D printed format except the orange plastic version shown with the orange plastic class 23 at TINGS many years ago.

N gauge sales do not match OO by a large margin and, it seems to be getting worse. Obviously there are cases in point against that, with the Farish class 40 (of which i have 2) but certainly N gauge is nowhere near the sales strength of OO gauge and hasnt been close ever.

However as it's my gauge of choice i support it and will continue to do so.

anyway, onto the posting and the link....................... no doubt some will still say its a 3D print and industrial light and magic have been employed to digitally move the engine on the layout. lol

cheers
Dave
------------------------------------------------------
Hi everyone,

Just a couple of things by means of an update on the progress of the N gauge class 17 to production, and a small video.

Video first.......
https://youtu.be/hcqQPjy7zdw

It's of the motorised first EP, which made it's debut at TINGS 2017, running on a layout this last weekend at Stafford show 2018.

Secondly, a progress report....

I wrote to all potential customers (over 200 of them) 10 days ago, with a proposal, and those of you who are they, and are reading this will know of it.

To put it bluntly, i explained that cash flow to go to second EP and production was almost impossible at the moment due to being spread thinly financially. Please note this is not to say the business is destitute, but having the extra to pay for the remaining tooling to high definition wasn't on the cards until later this year.

So i asked the 'expressors' if they would like to pay for their models up front, as by doing so, the model could be developed further with 2nd EP tooling being done (please remember i had already paid 50% of the tooling myself on the project to get it to the stage you see in the video). By doing so, the 'expressor' would then get their model at the advertised DJM 'expressions of interest' price, and i would throw in free postage too, and as such they would avoid all subsequent price rises imposed by China in the last few years.

So, 'expressors' wrote back, and although some had had their circumstances change, or even changed gauges, eras etc, i'm please to say i managed to get 50 modellers to say 'yes'.

While not enough on it's own, when combined with the finances i have available i'm within 15 customers (so roughly £2000.00 +/-) saying yes to go ahead with both the model , and the box (yes the box needs tooling as well)

If you have not responded, and do not want the model, please mail me and say so, and i'll remove you from my list for this model as i do not need to keep your details on file. If you still want the loco but don't wish to pay up front, then please by all means sit tight, and i'll be invoicing you when it's ready for delivery.

So when is delivery? OK, as you know and can see, the 1st EP is done, and has been done for many months, as i said it debuted at TINGS 2017, and has been on show at Warley etc, and been tested in the meantime to make sure it is reliable and robust.

Going to 2nd EP tooling will start almost immediately, or at least preparations will as CNY is coming upon us and not a lot happens in the 3 or so weeks of shut down and start up.

2nd EP tooling means that the tool is locked down to have all the fine detail added, the glazing tool gets polished to allow for clear glazing, and a further EP sample (working) is delivered to me for final tests, along with painted samples for approval.

Once this is done, the models go into production, scheduled to take a month, then 6 weeks to get here and be distributed.

So i'm aiming at the loco release at or before the TINGS N gauge show in October 2018

Thanks to all who took the leap to allow this to continue and finish this year.

Cheers
Dave

On behalf of the NGF team can I say thank you for coming on here to help clarify the situation, much appreciated.

good of Dave to supply this much needed update. Hopefully enough of a leap that the model will make TINGS 2018. I look forward to the smoke generator fitted one - it does not need a speaker as engines not running !! Unless you want the faint sounds of swearing traincrew !!

Robert

Quote from: DJM Dave on February 05, 2018, 10:11:52 AM
Hi everyone,

Just popped by to clarify a couple of things and post the update i posted on another forum a few minutes ago..

1) i never stop anyone taking photographs of my models and it's not in my interest to do so. The 92's and 17's etc were photographed a lot over the weekend with me often stopping the turntables they were on and letting people not only take their shots, but manhandle them, and pose them for the best angles.

2) The class 17 in all it's guises (in the last 2 years) shown since i got them are ALL plastic from the tooling. I have never had a class 17 in 3D printed format except the orange plastic version shown with the orange plastic class 23 at TINGS many years ago.

N gauge sales do not match OO by a large margin and, it seems to be getting worse. Obviously there are cases in point against that, with the Farish class 40 (of which i have 2) but certainly N gauge is nowhere near the sales strength of OO gauge and hasnt been close ever.

However as it's my gauge of choice i support it and will continue to do so.

anyway, onto the posting and the link....................... no doubt some will still say its a 3D print and industrial light and magic have been employed to digitally move the engine on the layout. lol

cheers
Dave
------------------------------------------------------
Hi everyone,

Just a couple of things by means of an update on the progress of the N gauge class 17 to production, and a small video.

Video first.......
https://youtu.be/hcqQPjy7zdw

It's of the motorised first EP, which made it's debut at TINGS 2017, running on a layout this last weekend at Stafford show 2018.

Secondly, a progress report....

I wrote to all potential customers (over 200 of them) 10 days ago, with a proposal, and those of you who are they, and are reading this will know of it.

To put it bluntly, i explained that cash flow to go to second EP and production was almost impossible at the moment due to being spread thinly financially. Please note this is not to say the business is destitute, but having the extra to pay for the remaining tooling to high definition wasn't on the cards until later this year.

So i asked the 'expressors' if they would like to pay for their models up front, as by doing so, the model could be developed further with 2nd EP tooling being done (please remember i had already paid 50% of the tooling myself on the project to get it to the stage you see in the video). By doing so, the 'expressor' would then get their model at the advertised DJM 'expressions of interest' price, and i would throw in free postage too, and as such they would avoid all subsequent price rises imposed by China in the last few years.

So, 'expressors' wrote back, and although some had had their circumstances change, or even changed gauges, eras etc, i'm please to say i managed to get 50 modellers to say 'yes'.

While not enough on it's own, when combined with the finances i have available i'm within 15 customers (so roughly £2000.00 +/-) saying yes to go ahead with both the model , and the box (yes the box needs tooling as well)

If you have not responded, and do not want the model, please mail me and say so, and i'll remove you from my list for this model as i do not need to keep your details on file. If you still want the loco but don't wish to pay up front, then please by all means sit tight, and i'll be invoicing you when it's ready for delivery.

So when is delivery? OK, as you know and can see, the 1st EP is done, and has been done for many months, as i said it debuted at TINGS 2017, and has been on show at Warley etc, and been tested in the meantime to make sure it is reliable and robust.

Going to 2nd EP tooling will start almost immediately, or at least preparations will as CNY is coming upon us and not a lot happens in the 3 or so weeks of shut down and start up.

2nd EP tooling means that the tool is locked down to have all the fine detail added, the glazing tool gets polished to allow for clear glazing, and a further EP sample (working) is delivered to me for final tests, along with painted samples for approval.

Once this is done, the models go into production, scheduled to take a month, then 6 weeks to get here and be distributed.

So i'm aiming at the loco release at or before the TINGS N gauge show in October 2018

Thanks to all who took the leap to allow this to continue and finish this year.

Cheers
Dave

Dave

Email responded to, looking forward to TINGS 

Quote from: Busybee on February 05, 2018, 09:45:33 AM
I was one of the people who ordered the tamper, and would not give any money up front to this person again. So, lets leave it at that.

I have to say this is a rather alarming revelation that I was completely unaware of - thanks for posting both yourself and Maurits. It doesn't change my position of waiting to see what actually turns up, what quality it is (in particular the mechanism) given this is a new venture.

It does bring up the question of how covered you are if any pre-order/crowdfund company falls over - does paying by credit card offer any better protection (assuming the purchase is over £100)?

Cheers,
Alan

Setting DJ aside for a moment,

Crowdfunding through a Kickstarter or an Indegogo is a punt.  The safety net if any is the pre-vet by the crowdfunder and the "all funded or no funding" model if there is one, ensuring the project is fully funded before the monies are collected.  The Crowdfunders take a descent cut for this but it works and a very high proportion of these projects succeed. There is always the danger of funders changing their mind so proper crowdfunders take credit card details when there is a commitment to buy and exercise them when the project is funded.

The model works but is not a guarantee.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 05, 2018, 11:06:09 AM
Setting DJ aside for a moment,

Crowdfunding through a Kickstarter or an Indegogo is a punt.  The safety net if any is the pre-vet by the crowdfunder and the "all funded or no funding" model if there is one, ensuring the project is fully funded before the monies are collected.  The Crowdfunders take a descent cut for this but it works and a very high proportion of these projects succeed. There is always the danger of funders changing their mind so proper crowdfunders take credit card details when there is a commitment to buy and exercise them when the project is funded.

The model works but is not a guarantee.

I invested (although donated is a better word i think) to the Tiko 3D printer project that was through 'kickstarter', it was probably the best supported kickstarter campaign to date and of the 200k they wanted they got around 3m!!

But gross mismanagement, not knowing how to deal with the Chinese etc meant that they blew through the money very quickly. Then they lied to us all by saying the product was ready for dispatch and that they needed shipping money (which, to be fair we know about) and got a further 800k for the shipping, which was 'ring fenced' according  to the Tiko guys, but they used it to prop up the company.

Rumours abound about houses purchased etc, and Kickstarter doesnt have a repayment scheme and have kept quiet on the whole thing despite taking a healthy wodge to 'run' the campaign.

Tiko closed their doors late last year and its now in the hand of the receivers.
I say all this to back up and explain the situation noted above ...... its a punt. Simple as that. It's how much you trust the person to deliver at the end of the day.

Going into a little history for everyone here too, i ran nthusiast resprays, and when i was offered the Dapol job, i was open about how the tamper and a couple of other projects were holding me down, and gave an undertaking to George Smith that i would pay everyone i owed.

however at the time, i had lost my database of orders in the move and subsequent break up of my marriage, so i knew i owed but not to whom.

Luckily, most got in contact with me through my last employer and through shows i attended, and i put those right.
Strangely enough, despite my profile, there are some out there who i know not, that have not contacted me, even right through to today, as i would also put that right too.
Mind you, at Warley i had a tamper customer come up to me and quite rightly 'had a go' at me, and was rather stunned that explained the situation and refunded him on the spot!

I have never run away from my obligations, i just have no way of contacting individuals to sort any situation out.
If you are owed by me from my enthusiast days, why not mail me?
it's not that i've gone anywhere and hid or have disappeared is it?

Cheers
Dave

Quote from: DJM Dave on February 05, 2018, 10:11:52 AM
i'm please to say i managed to get 50 modellers to say 'yes'.

While not enough on it's own, when combined with the finances i have available i'm within 15 customers (so roughly £2000.00 +/-) saying yes to go ahead with both the model , and the box (yes the box needs tooling as well)

Once this is done, the models go into production, scheduled to take a month, then 6 weeks to get here and be distributed.

So i'm aiming at the loco release at or before the TINGS N gauge show in October 2018

@DJM Dave so are you within 15 loco's of kicking this off or 15 multiple orders ?

If your target is met and it's a goer i will come and pick mine up at TINGS, 700 mile round trip btw. Once you confirm the above and i pay you, which i will this morning if you can confirm.

Craig

Dave
PM sent
Robert