Quote from: Snowwolflair on March 19, 2017, 05:45:31 PM

Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 19, 2017, 05:42:53 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on March 19, 2017, 05:36:03 PM
I'm sorry but this wages thing is a lot of Hooey.

The labour cost is not just in final assembly and packing, and it would be naïve only to look at that aspect. Low volume production incurs labour costs all along the way and that is very evident when you see a model train factory working in China.

Yes I have over simplified it, but as I have run factories in China, my factoring in a four times allows for all the other averaged times.

The other thing not to oversimplify is the comparison of wage levels and labour costs. Having run factories in 5 European countries, including England and Wales  I am very conscious that wages are not the sole element in the labour cost incurred.

None of these models are on my wish lists so thankfully I am not affected.  Neither as it happens am I likely to make any purchases at least from loco reruns, though on that score I might change my mind.  And wagons/coaches might appeal.  And I quite appreciate that the decision is driven by reasonable commercial and business factors.

But I can well understand the feelings of frustration and annoyance that they took so many years on some of these to get not very far, with very little in the way of progress reports.  The prize example which did affect me was the Grafar Ivatt mogul - fabulous little model it is now I have it.  Any business has to recognise that it will make no profits if it drives its customers away.  And one good way of driving them away is making product announcements and then failing to deliver them, and/or not giving sensible explanations  apologies for the delays, and revised timescales.  Delays do happen in which case to keep your end-user/customer in the loop is normal good project management discipline.  Now I think it was on this forum, though it may be another, that I picked up that our manufacturers had decided to refrain from announcing new models at least until their arrival in thee shops was much closer and less at risk of delay.  I cannot find where I read it, but from memory it was as the item went into production - someone might be able to find it.  But to me that is a very sensible approach.  I hope they follow it through.  Yes they are the hand which feeds us our wanted models.  But we the customer are the hand which feeds them profits for their shareholders and ensures continuance of their business.

Like others I welcomed the arrival of Dapol in the N Gauge market.  WE still have what is largely a duopoly but some potential competition is better than next to none.  They have given us a fine range of impressive models.  Yes there have been some issues over the years with running quality, derailing of leading bogies etc.  And there was that ridiculous foray into silver wheels and cross head screws for the coupling rods with the early Brits, I think the early B1s as well?  Though that one was cosmetic.  They have certainly given us a lot more than I suspect Farish would have done on their own and probably forced the pace in technical development.  like others I hope they can continue in N.

Just spent the best part of half an hour reading through the whole thread

Yes we have lost a few models, all of which i was interested in buying!

Seems to be far to much Hate Towards Dapol for it,

but c'est la vie

At Least we still have them as an N manufacturer along with the rest, Farish, RevolutioN, DJM And so on

If it wasn't for company's like them we would all have to kit build

Quote from: Ben A on March 19, 2017, 04:39:00 PMBut given the proven quality of Rapido and our regular updates with clear and observable progress I would not anticipate a significant number of cancellations, certainly not enough to threaten a project.

Those who choose to support us are not fickle and will have weighed up the likely outcomes before deciding to part with their hard earned cash.

Yes, I think this is pivotal. You do a fantastic example of being a "brand of the people", and I'm glad you've not seen many cancellations. I certainly hope (and imagine based on the resale value of the TEAs), this trend continues. perhaps this announcement does provide you an opportunity... or two! 

Quote from: cazadoom on March 19, 2017, 06:50:44 PM

If it wasn't for company's like them we would all have to kit build

Quite right cazadoom!  As one whose kit-building skills are completely derisory I am eternally grateful to all N gauge manufacturers.



Mark

Are Dapol no longer going to produce the class 50 or have they delayed it ?

Jamie

Quote"Projects such as the Class 50, Class 59, prototype HST, Battle of Britain and others are being delayed as result of this."

First post in the thread.


Paul

Quote from: Mark on March 19, 2017, 07:58:30 PM

Quote from: cazadoom on March 19, 2017, 06:50:44 PM

If it wasn't for company's like them we would all have to kit build

Quite right cazadoom!  As one whose kit-building skills are completely derisory I am eternally grateful to all N gauge manufacturers.



Mark

Over the years I have built a lot of kits, and bashed kits and RTR models.  At one point half my loco roster was kit built or modified.  I sold some on when I abandoned my GWR fleet, and have replaced others as much better RTR became available.  Even the Poole version of the  4F, which I still have was superior to my kit versions.  And my hand tremor is somewhat worse now than 20+ years ago, so I have to be more selective in my efforts.  However I am not unwilling to have a go as long as not too much money is at risk of ending up in the rubbish.

A real issue for loco kits, apart from the fact someone is going to have to find a market big enough to make and sell them in, is the chassis.  In the good old days, you removed a screw from a Farish loco and the chassis came off.  These days construction of RTR is not only complicated and fiddly, we would still have to pay the price of a whole loco to get the chassis.

Quote from: Sprintex on March 19, 2017, 08:16:18 PM

Quote"Projects such as the Class 50, Class 59, prototype HST, Battle of Britain and others are being delayed as result of this."

First post in the thread.


Paul

It's in the thread title too...

Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 19, 2017, 05:53:42 PM


The other thing not to oversimplify is the comparison of wage levels and labour costs. Having run factories in 5 European countries, including England and Wales  I am very conscious that wages are not the sole element in the labour cost incurred.

A question; was the uk a worse place for running the factories than the other three countries, if so, why?

Quote from: Howlin`baz on March 19, 2017, 04:29:52 PM
Oh dear!   It does seem to be "Let's all have a pop at Dapol week. ...

On Friday morning I read a statement from Dr Joel Bright, MD of Dapol. In that statement he took a large dump on many thousands of customers. So should we all just sit quietly and take it without venting? BTW, I cannot find that statement on the Dapol website now!

Quote from: Howlin`baz on March 19, 2017, 04:29:52 PM
.. I recall going to an open day at their factory (c.2004) when the then chairman George Smith ( who I liked and respected) showed the members of the N'Thusiasts Club their "magnificent seven".   This was the details of seven completely new lococs which Dapol was in a position of " being able to produce with a six-month lead time!".  These included a cl.92 and a cl.50 ...

So where are they then? You were told in 2004 by the MD of Dapol that they could have Class 92 and 50 on the shelves in 6 months. So 13 years later where are they? I suspect that Mr Smith lied to you, and Dr Bright has continued those lies.

Quote from: Howlin`baz on March 19, 2017, 04:29:52 PM
.. I also recall at the N Gauge Society AGM of 2001 when Mr.Smith was invited to talk about Dapol's plan to enter the N Gauge market.   He said they would like to do this, but it would only happen if they received the assurances that they would be sure of having customer support. ...

And they got that support. I have personally supported them to the tune of several thousands of pounds. I've supported then despite fairly serious (lack of) quality issues. I've supported them when they shipped Class 66 models with inaccurate bogie frames, and I supported them when they charged me for replacement frames to fix their design error. I even continued to support them when they slipped back to shipping Class 66 models again with inaccurate bogie frames.

Quote from: Howlin`baz on March 19, 2017, 04:29:52 PM
.. We have what we have, so let' s get on with modelling.

No, I don't want to yet, I haven't finished having a pop at poor innocent and defenceless Dapol. When I first read Dr Bright's statement, I tried to take positives from it. But as I have reread it many times over the weekend, I see it for what it is: a stinking pile of faeces. So if you want to continue apologizing for Dapol @Howlin`baz you should. And if I and others want to continue having a pop at Dapol, you should let us.

Quote from: Sprintex on March 19, 2017, 08:16:18 PM

Quote"Projects such as the Class 50, Class 59, prototype HST, Battle of Britain and others are being delayed as result of this."

First post in the thread.


Paul

Thanks for pointing that out. I saw that and the title but judging by all the fuss it seemed like something far more serious was going on than simply a delay. Fact is, Farish has announced the MK2F coaches in their catalogue a long long time ago and still there is no word on them. Dapol have at least come forward to say there is going to be a delay on certain products and we get this. I thought I may have missed something. 

I guess telling us there's going to be a lengthy delay really didn't do them any good. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Personally I'll keep my fingers crossed that they eventually produce these models and more besides.

Jamie

Quote from: Bornin1980something on March 19, 2017, 08:36:41 PM

Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 19, 2017, 05:53:42 PM


The other thing not to oversimplify is the comparison of wage levels and labour costs. Having run factories in 5 European countries, including England and Wales  I am very conscious that wages are not the sole element in the labour cost incurred.

A question; was the uk a worse place for running the factories than the other three countries, if so, why?

My perspective is a management one, but we had very low staff turnover at all the sites so not bad places to work, even though other local job opportunities existed.

UK was the best environment. It was lightly unionised, workforce was skilled, thorough and flexible, and responded well to change. Strong workplace safety culture. 

Austria and Germany were 100% unionised, and every change in working practices required lengthy consultation involving external union personnel whose main concerns were the impact on other workplaces. Skilled workforce but strong demarcation lines between jobs.

France was in between. A congenial place to work once I had stopped the wildcat strikes!

Also worked in an Indian factory which was one of our customers. I have a fund of stories from there, most of which are reserved for my eulogy! :-)

Quote from: escafeld on March 19, 2017, 09:27:13 PM

Quote from: RailGooner on March 19, 2017, 09:03:52 PM
No, I don't want to yet, I haven't finished having a pop at poor innocent and defenceless Dapol. When I first read Dr Bright's statement, I tried to take positives from it. But as I have reread it many times over the weekend, I see it for what it is: a stinking pile of faeces. So if you want to continue apologizing for Dapol @Howlin`baz you should. And if I and others want to continue having a pop at Dapol, you should let us.

So your not happy then! 

And nor am I. It seems Dapol have dropped this bombshell and run for shelter, not even coming out of hiding on their own 'Digest' to respond to posts. There is bound to be a wide range of opinions hitting this thread and they all ought to be respected regardless of whether they fit in with your individual one. I'm sure the Mods are keeping a close eye on us.

Quote from: newportnobby on March 19, 2017, 09:38:03 PM
I'm sure the Mods are keeping a close eye on us.

Paul