No comment on the Brexit issue it is going to happen so get over it, why don't all these manufactures make their stock in this country, why do they have to go a far to get anything made, don't we have any skilled personal anymore, and if we haven't get them trained and lets get back to being the best again.   

Quote from: newportnobby on March 19, 2017, 01:09:36 PM

Quote from: Ian Bowden on March 19, 2017, 01:00:37 PM
It is money that governs everything these days.

I can't quite agree with that. You can have squillions in the bank but if your production run is small and someone comes along with a larger, simpler run the chances are your slot will be bumped at the factory.

To develop that analogy a little more, why would your slot get bumped? Because someone else was paying more. What's that about money not being the key to everything!

Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
No comment on the Brexit issue it is going to happen so get over it, why don't all these manufactures make their stock in this country, why do they have to go a far to get anything made, don't we have any skilled personal anymore, and if we haven't get them trained and lets get back to being the best again.   

Hi

That can be summed up in one word.
Cost.

Why do you think it was outsourced in the first place? Consumers arn't prepared to pay the price of products manufactured in the Uk.  Look at the comments about the TEA tanker which is predicted to be £38 each and that's from China.

Cheers

Paul

Bang on Paul. The amount of moaning about current prices shows the market won't sustain the kind of costs associated with bringing manufacturing back to the U.K. That's why Dapol has 'postponed' these models - they don't think the market will pay what it costs to develop and build them. The mention of UK manufacturing is optimistic at best.

When China becomes too expensive manufacturing will move to the cheapest labour market, that's the way it works in global economy.

Quote from: Jonas on March 19, 2017, 03:28:32 PM
Bang on Paul. The amount of moaning about current prices shows the market won't sustain the kind of costs associated with bringing manufacturing back to the U.K. That's why Dapol has 'postponed' these models - they don't think the market will pay what it costs to develop and build them. The mention of UK manufacturing is optimistic at best.

Wrong Dapol have 'postponed/cancelled' these as priorities have changed and Brexit is the latest convenient excuse. These have been on the list since about 2012 give or take, so let's say 5 years of no activities and Brexit happened 10 months ago. Really change of priority is to blame 5 years ago, if they had wanted to these could have been bringing in money long before brexit was even dreamt of.

Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
why do they have to go a far to get anything made,

As others have said, price.

Union Mills products probably show this in a way we can all appreciate. They're a little cheaper than equivalent Chinese-made models, that's true. But they're much simpler mechanisms; have no electronics to speak of (making DCC more complex than slotting in a chip); and most importantly, they're very basic in terms of details. Nothing much by way of separate handrails and the like, and the painting, lining and numbering is very limited (and often inaccurate or at least incomplete).

If you wanted Union Mills models to compare with the latest Farish and Dapol models, they're require a lot more time per model to assemble, and that'd raise their price.

Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
don't we have any skilled personal anymore

Nope. The UK economy is increasingly oriented towards the financial services, and such manufacturing as does remain is more or less high-tech manufacturing nowadays, not toy-making. We make all sorts of high-end gizmos for aircraft, cars and all sorts. The people making these things have different skills to those making toy trains. You can't expect successful manufacturers like JCB or BAE Systems to start adding low-margin things like toys to their portfolios of products.

Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
if we haven't get them trained and lets get back to being the best again.

Two things here. One is the obvious: we were never the best manufacturers. The British Empire protected its markets from competition, and that was what British manufacturing depended on. North British, Austin, English Electric and the like weren't bad companies by any means, but they had never had to deal with serious stiff competition, and the story of their decline through the 1950s and 60s was very much about their inability to compete on the world stage without protectionist policies in their favour.

The second thing is your assumption 16-18 year olds want to be trained to build and paint toy trains. Some might of course, but not for the wages they'd get given the price the toy train market would bear. If they want good jobs, people in Britain need to understand that learning about the STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering and maths) is the golden key that opens up opportunity. Expecting a living wage as a semi-skilled factory worker is increasingly looking about as realistic as banking on a lottery win for your retirement.

Let me stress that the assumption countries should make things they consume is not only out of date but actually harmful. Countries that depend upon each other have better relations. We buy from China; China invests in the UK. Neither country has anything to gain from an antagonistic relationship. In short, free international trade promotes prosperity and reduces the chance of war.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
why don't all these manufactures make their stock in this country, why do they have to go a far to get anything made.

Cost. Estimates vary but those in the know have suggested that a loco to modern standards produced in the UK would cost roughly 3 times as much as the current made-in-China products. I think the hobby would be a lot smaller if new locos cost £300-ish each.

Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
don't we have any skilled personal anymore

Not many and those who remain are far more expensive than their Chinese equivalents (see above).

Quote from: Steamie+ on March 19, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
and if we haven't get them trained and lets get back to being the best again.

]

And who is going to absorb the cost of hiring people and training them up, only to produce a loco far more expensively than their far-eastern counterparts?

Sorry to be blunt but like Trump's "make America great again", policies to bring back manufacturing from abroad will simply increase prices with customers like us bearing the costs. Manufacturing trains in the UK would not be cost effective, even on UK minimum wages (which mighht no even apply once workers have been trained up in injection moulding and assembly).

Oh dear!   It does seem to be "Let's all have a pop at Dapol week.   In the real world the facts are clear.   The N market is not as big as that for 00, though there are more manufacruturers, and the tooling and production cost are similar.  If Dapol think that they will not make a financial return on ' new' products they cannot be faulted if they decide not to invest/gamble on making them.   They are a business - not a charity.

Seeing that they can bring a return on 00 and even O, then naturally they will choose to produced these products.   I would remind the forum that they are not planning to cease production completely.

However, I do welcome their statement that they " have been promising items without any basis other than their "wish to produce list".   This is not a new problem.    I recall going to an open day at their factory (c.2004) when the then chairman George Smith ( who I liked and respected) showed the members of the N'Thusiasts Club their "magnificent seven".   This was the details of seven completely new lococs which Dapol was in a position of " being able to produce with a six-month lead time!".  These included a cl.92 and a cl.50 - amongst others, some of which were produced in the following several years.   I also recall at the N Gauge Society AGM of 2001 when Mr.Smith was invited to talk about Dapol's plan to enter the N Gauge market.   He said they would like to do this, but it would only happen if they received the assurances that they would be sure of having customer support.   

I am not in the pay of Dapol, neither do I have no critism of their products.   I own far too many of them - and guess what?    I have had my share of problems also, but certainly not to extent of 75% which some people claim.   Yes I do think better quality control is needed (still), but that would need someone permanently based where their manufacture is done, which would be massive cost (ultimately added to their selling price).   Having spent two months this year in Hong Kong, and my own opinion is that HK has an 'everything will be done when we promised and as you ordered Mr.customer' a promise which they then find they cannot keep.   
So let us be realistic.   N Gauge is in better shape than it has been since I started in this gauge in the mid-70s.   The quality is high, the pricing is an issue, though even that is relative, and the performance is also improved generally.   
There may come a day ( sooner than we hope or think) when we will be able to ask a manufacture to produce a " one-off' of a prototype which very few people are likely to buy, and it all be produced in a few weeks.   I am talking about when 3D printing has improved to match the quality achieved by the manufacturers currently.
We have what we have, so let' s get on with modelling.

Quote from: njee20 on March 19, 2017, 08:08:39 AM

Quote from: longbow on March 19, 2017, 04:07:47 AM
Revolution take a substantial deposit upfront with your order and refund only if the project is aborted, so I think their exposure to customer cancellation will be low..

Principally I agree, but it's never been tested if someone suddenly brought 'their' product to market early in the process. It shouldn't make a difference, but it's something I would be considering were I Ben and Mike.

Hi Nick,

Yes, we have considered this and with the TEA tankers we did have a couple of "late" cancellations, where customers had strong personal reasons, so we took the decision to refund and then sell their models at Warley.

With models still in development the only real risk is if a rival model appears actually ready for purchase after we have paid for tooling, but before our models are ready to be shipped.

But given the proven quality of Rapido and our regular updates with clear and observable progress I would not anticipate a significant number of cancellations, certainly not enough to threaten a project.

Those who choose to support us are not fickle and will have weighed up the likely outcomes before deciding to part with their hard earned cash.

Cheers

Ben A.

I think that I have read all the posts on this thread up to now. Leaving aside the emotional dimension/disappointment which is evident, there seems to be an understanding that the UK N gauge market cannot support sufficient sales on these models at the likely prices for future production not already tooled today.

The problem seems to be focussed on some of the "land grab" items which had progressed little over several years. Why they had not progressed is not certain but I suspect the projects could never get high enough up the queue to justify the tooling investment, given the competition from other scales and the  financial, skill and capacity constraints which Dapol work within. Although it has been a long time coming the news that Dapol will not repeat the "land grab" is refreshing.

Once DJModels have reduced their queue, and some of the Farish plans have got off the drawing board and into tooling, we will be in a better place where the lead time from announcement to realisation is shortened, and we can all plan with more confidence.

I well remember two layouts back sending an enquiry to George Smith/Dave Jones about where in the train  the Pendolino powered car would be. I got a response which allowed me to arrange the isolation sections to match the powered car being one of the driving coaches.

I'm not sure I've ever seen so many forum members and guests reading a thread as this one.
Congratulations to all on the spirit it is being conducted in. I'm finding the discussion fascinating.

I'm sorry but this wages thing is a lot of Hooey.

How many man hours does it take to make a model?  From a kit of parts between 10 to 15 minutes max and allowing for handling (five operators 2 minutes each), stores packaging lets be generous and say it takes one man hour to make one model locomotive.

So on UK minimum wages that's £7.50 approx and in China £3.00.  So the difference in labor cost here and in China is c£4.00.

There is a bigger difference in cost of capital, taxes etc but not shipping 8000 miles partly offsets this, especially if your UK factory is in a development zone and you get grants and subsidies for training staff etc.

We must be wary of China is cheaper propaganda, its not that much cheaper now and the small difference remaining is going away.

The clue in the Dapol statement is they are bringing manufacturing home, something that will be upsetting their Chinese suppliers and they may have a different problem they want to avoid disclosing that they are going to find it hard to get models from China in the short term.

NB I understand that Dapol just took on an additional industrial unit.

Quote from: Snowwolflair on March 19, 2017, 05:36:03 PM
I'm sorry but this wages thing is a lot of Hooey.

The labour cost is not just in final assembly and packing, and it would be naïve only to look at that aspect. Low volume production incurs labour costs all along the way and that is very evident when you see a model train factory working in China.

Quote from: woodbury22uk on March 19, 2017, 05:42:53 PM

Quote from: Snowwolflair on March 19, 2017, 05:36:03 PM
I'm sorry but this wages thing is a lot of Hooey.

The labour cost is not just in final assembly and packing, and it would be naïve only to look at that aspect. Low volume production incurs labour costs all along the way and that is very evident when you see a model train factory working in China.

Yes I have over simplified it, but as I have run factories in China, my factoring in a four times allows for all the other averaged times.