Quote from: DJM Dave on March 19, 2017, 07:46:46 AM
However, never let a good post and possible axe to grind get in the way of an incorrect post eh?

Sums up a lot of the reactions here, to be honest.

Projects being cancelled happens all the time in any industry that has to balance the cost of manufacture against the revenue generated by likely sales. Brexit threw a massive spanner into the works, the size of which people outside finance and industry cannot even begin to imagine.


Dapol is a small company that has "skin in the game" as our American cousins like to say -- if they make mistakes, they get burned. I have nothing but the greatest respect for Joel Bright and his team as they try to find a way to deliver at least some new products across an uncertain medium-term future. What Dapol are doing is incredibly difficult, and their honesty should be commended, even if it's disappointing. If I were Joel, I'd have found it very tempting just to cancel any and all speculative investments right now. They have plenty in their 'back catalogue' that could have paid the bills for a few years, without the need to invest time and money in research and development of new models for such as fickle market as ours. Instead he's picked the more difficult path, and we should be realistically understanding about what they're trying to do.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: DJM Dave on March 19, 2017, 07:46:46 AM

Quote from: PLD on March 18, 2017, 11:55:49 PM
Just a couple of thoughts for those (partly justified) accusing Dapol of a "Land Grab" in announcing those models when they did and encouraging other manufacturers (particularly DJM & Revolution) to "Grab" those same prototypes now...

So... What makes you thing these prototypes would progress any faster on someone else's ever growing back list of not-yet-delivered models than they have on Dapol's books?

Hi great mail, but nicely overlooking and possibly ignoring the facts.

However, never let a good post and possible axe to grind get in the way of an incorrect post eh?

Exactly Dave, based on this thread, there is more profit in an axe sharpening business (both sides of the axe) than Model railway manufacturing...

If however you thought that was a dig at you personally, it wasn't intended as such... It was aimed at the naive commentators who seem to believe that you or Revolution can somehow magically deliver in 6 weeks what Dapol have not achieved in 6 years. Expecting you to do that will only lead to further disappointment as anything you did pick up would presumably go to the back of your list to avoid frustrating the customers already waiting for J94s, 17s, 23s etc...

Hi mate,
Thanks for the reply and for clarifying the situation.

From my point of view, I know I have landgrabbed too much, but in all honesty that was done on the premise of predicted cash flow, pre Brexit.

Now don't anyone get me wrong, I'm not whining about things, it's just the way they are, but because I worked on such narrow margins in my pricing because I am conscious of the possibility of alienating people with a new product that's just too expensive, I made a rod for my own back.

Lots announced but nothing to pay for them with, and it's been a far longer road than anyone has expected. Then........that day. When the banks decided, and for the life of me I can't understand why, as although it's announced, be]rexit won't happen for a good few years yet, to alter currency rates against the U.K.£.

Ok, it happens, but over night, literally, things went pear shaped.
If you look at the 2 currency's I deal in overseas .....US$ and HK$ you can with a bit of ferreting work out my 'on paper' reduction in income.
It's not good, and in all honesty, I feel for any model railway company having to deal with this situation, added to wage and tax rises in China.

The smart money is already looking further afield in earnest now, for production in other country's. Personally, I can't see it happening for a few years, but it will happen.

Meanwhile my list won't grow longer and will start to grow shorter from this year in N gauge with the 17 and I hope 23.

Cheers
Dave

Quote from: DJM Dave on March 19, 2017, 07:46:46 AM

Quote from: PLD on March 18, 2017, 11:55:49 PM
Just a couple of thoughts for those (partly justified) accusing Dapol of a "Land Grab" in announcing those models when they did and encouraging other manufacturers (particularly DJM & Revolution) to "Grab" those same prototypes now...

1. Joel has been man enough to step forward and admit that the previous regime at the company were over ambitious and announced far too many models than was feasible for them to deliver in a reasonable timescale.

2. Who was the Product Development Manager at Dapol at the time of the alleged "Land Grab"??

So... What makes you thing these prototypes would progress any faster on someone else's ever growing back list of not-yet-delivered models than they have on Dapol's books?

Hi great mail, but nicely overlooking and possibly ignoring the facts.

Fact 1) yes the BOB /WC, the 59, the 50 were announced by me.
However, if you think I just woke up one day and thought 'I know, I'll announce these and just do it' without recourse / permission from my CEO, then that's incorrect and Ill thought through.

Fact 2) I've been left 4 years this coming July 22, so am I at fault for those 4 years for the lack of development on those projects? I'm not sure you thought that through either.

However, never let a good post and possible axe to grind get in the way of an incorrect post eh?

As Dave knows he and I don't always see eye to eye but I must play fair, Brexit is a smoke screen as these models were announced many, many moons ago. All could have been tooled well before Brexit, if the desire had been there.

Change of leadership when George left marked the shift to OO and O gauges, these new projects took priority over previously announced items. To blame this on Dave is thus unfair, he announced them in good faith under a different MD.

A lot of water has passed under the Dapol bridge with a couple of floods in the last 5-6 years, with changes in flow direction as well. Unfortunately this may leave us with only Farish as a major manufacturer and small set ups of DJM, Revolution and limited amounts from Dapol.

Very disappointed about the WC / BoB - Karhedron ruined my Friday with that news almost as much as the Irish rugby team ruined my Saturday.

I don't think it's fair to castigate Dapol for this though. The focus away from N gauge was on the cards after the changes in senior personnel and at least they've been honest enough to make a reasonably clear announcement, although I think we can probably take abeyance (which suggests temporary) to really mean cancelled. 

As a Southern modeller, they'll be sorely missed.  Their range of southern models over the years - M7, Q1, Terrier, Schools, 33 & Maunsell coaches - is far more comprehensive than Farish (although they have at last produced some excellent southern models in the last 2 or 3 years).

I hope someone picks up the WC / BoB although not sure it's likely to be any time soon.  Will just have to spend my money on DJM Dave's forthcoming 17 - frequently seen in 60s South London, I believe.

Mark 

Quote from: Mark on March 19, 2017, 09:58:45 AM
Will just have to spend my money on DJM Dave's forthcoming 17 - frequently seen in 60s South London, I believe.

I hope that was very tongue in cheek. 15s yes and 16s even less so, and even a 20 has been seen, but not a 17, unless it was an 08 and 09 pairing

Bob

Quote from: austinbob on March 18, 2017, 09:48:14 PM

Quote from: njee20 on March 18, 2017, 09:16:50 PM
So people are wary of crowdfunding, but some will send undated cheques to a company with a history of hideous delays?! Madness.

Bit of an over reaction - the 66 is already in production and Evening Star is just a re-livery. So not a big risk at first sight. However, the latest news about 'cancellations' makes it less certain that Evening star will actually happen.

Asked on Dapol Digest when Class 66 Evening Star is likely to be available. Comment from Jeremiabunyan 'A recent chat with Neil was mainly about this...he said they'll be here in a few months. I am assuming it's 2-3 (but that's purely my own assumption).'
Note that the original estimate was Easter!! Quote from Joel December 2016 'Once we have tweaked the livery a bit and made some adjustments on another Class 66 we are making they will go into the production queue. At this stage, I would say Easter time would be the best estimate.'
So ... make what you want of that!!

Quote
I hope that was very tongue in cheek. 15s yes and 16s even less so, and even a 20 has been seen, but not a 17, unless it was an 08 and 09 pairing

Bob

Bob, with your encyclopedic knowledge of all things southern I'm amazed you're not aware of the 17's long and noble association with the south.

Alright, yes .... completely tongue in cheek - it'll be my first Rule #1 loco.  It can pull my ngs inspection saloon!

"All could have been tooled well before Brexit, IF THE DESIRE HAD BEEN THERE"

That clunk, I believe, was the sound of a nail being very firmly struck !

I've been following this thread with interest, open season on Dapol !
Maybe if they just produced N gauge wagons and coaches they would
save a lot of hassle, I have some of their non loco stuff and it
is very good.


A footnote, in 1961 John F Kennedy pledged to put a man on the
moon within 10 years and they did it in 8 , NASA could probably have
got a  BoB loco on the shelves in about 20 mins .....

Totally off topic LOL

Quote from: Mark on March 19, 2017, 10:49:43 AM
Bob, with your encyclopedic knowledge of all things southern I'm amazed you're not aware of the 17's long and noble association with the south.

Alright, yes .... completely tongue in cheek - it'll be my first Rule #1 loco.  It can pull my ngs inspection saloon!

Clayton 8568 in preservation made it to Old Oak Common in 1991 http://www.railphotoarchive.org/search_engine_2.php?_format=4&img=1529020010000&_PAGE=1

And you could always pretend that the ones based at Wearmouth were actually based at Weymouth and had a Newcastle accent 

Bob

Quote from: broadsword on March 19, 2017, 12:05:59 PM

A footnote, in 1961 John F Kennedy pledged to put a man on the
moon within 10 years and they did it in 8

I think he actually said before this decade is out...which means they only just made it, but you are right - they did achieve it.

Quote from: Bob G on March 19, 2017, 12:32:02 PM

Quote from: broadsword on March 19, 2017, 12:05:59 PM

A footnote, in 1961 John F Kennedy pledged to put a man on the
moon within 10 years and they did it in 8

I think he actually said before this decade is out...which means they only just made it, but you are right - they did achieve it.

I am sure if Dapol had, like NASA had in those days, seemingly unlimited cash to spend they would be producing a new loco every week. It is money that governs everything these days.

Quote from: Ian Bowden on March 19, 2017, 01:00:37 PM
It is money that governs everything these days.

I can't quite agree with that. You can have squillions in the bank but if your production run is small and someone comes along with a larger, simpler run the chances are your slot will be bumped at the factory.

That post of mine was a joke, but having vast amounts of money doesn't  necessarily
guarantee success (Football, scrapped military projects, big budget movies that flop).
Perhaps if  Dapol had concentrated on fewer locos, ironing out flaws in the final product,
improving reliability ie getting things right before they sell to  punters , they might be
in a better position now.