After all modern tank locos had inset bunkers to improve the drivers vision.

Dodger

On the Glasgow Central Railway NOBODY could see ANYTHING! (Including the signals) But I don't think you understand how locomotives were driven. When driving a steam loco bunker first, the driver is sitting on the opposite side from which the signals are sighted. He is also facing in the wrong direction. Now, small locomotives like, say A LBSCR 'Terrier' or the very similar Caledonian Railway 171 class where the bunker was low and the cab was small would not have been too much of a problem. Larger tank locomotives although having design features that should have made bunker first running easier, often had restricted visibility to the rear. Now often this came down to individual drivers perferences and the nature of the service. On short lines worked by small tanks at low speeds, often bunker first running was the norm, indeed if there was no facilities for turning the locomotive at the terminal, it was the only choice. But on longer branch lines where trains were worked at higher speeds, bunker first running was NOT the norm. I remember hearing about an incident at Bangor when a train arrived from Afonwen with two black fives at the head to take the train over the severe climbs between Afonwen and Bangor.. As there was no turning facilities for large tender locos at Afonwen, the locos had to come bach as the had gone so to speak. Normally, if the two 'fives' were facing in different directions, they would be coupled smokebox to smoke box. This was because the assisting engine came off of this train at Bangor and the train engine continued to Manchester. One fine day, some genie decided that the engines should be coupled tender to tender as that looked prettier, When it arrived at Bangor and it was suggested to the Manchester crew that they should go from Bangor tender first, they were, to put it mildly, not happy! The loco had to be replaced with one facing the correct direction.

Quote from: violets49 on November 08, 2016, 06:24:38 PM
On the Glasgow Central Railway NOBODY could see ANYTHING! (Including the signals) But I don't think you understand how locomotives were driven. When driving a steam loco bunker first, the driver is sitting on the opposite side from which the signals are sighted.

About the same as a Right Hand drive loco going chimney first.

Dodger

Quote from: violets49 on November 08, 2016, 06:24:38 PMI remember hearing about an incident at Bangor

Ah well... If you want to stray on to a line I know well...

Quote from: violets49 on November 08, 2016, 06:24:38 PMI remember hearing about an incident at Bangor when a train arrived from Afonwen with two black fives at the head to take the train over the severe climbs between Afonwen and Bangor

Last time I checked, Black 5s were tender locos, not tanks as we are talking about... However the Bangor-Afonwen line does give us a perfect example of bunker first running of Tank engines being preferred. Standard faire on the Bultin's Trains (which reversed at Afonwen) was a pair of 2-6-4 tanks (Fairburn, Stanier or BR varieties) most commonly marshalled smokebox to smokebox so the combination was always bunker leading.

Quote from: violets49 on November 08, 2016, 06:24:38 PMAs there was no turning facilities for large tender locos at Afonwen, the locos had to come bach as the had gone so to speak

Actually at 70ft the turntable at Afonwen was capable of turning a Black 5, but being inconveniently sited on the GW side of the station, it was considered more trouble than it's worth to turn locos by crews who were happy to run bunker first back to Bangor...

Quote from: violets49 on November 08, 2016, 06:24:38 PMit was suggested to the Manchester crew that they should go from Bangor tender first

100 miles of high-speed Main-line running is a very different proposition to a branchline as being discussed. In any case it is doubtful it would have been considered except as an absolute last resort because the train would have been limited to 45mph instead of 70mph not only delaying it's own arrival by at least 2 hours but causing chaos for all other traffic on the line!!

If you know the line well, you will know the turntable was removed in 1930 It was long before my time but I VERY much doubt if it was a 70 footer. Seventy foot tables were comparatively rare. Also, I assure you that exept in the minds of trainspotters, locomotives running tender first were not restricted to 45 MPH I have no knowlege of this and it seems to be of recent origin.

I believe it is a restriction bought in for preserved steam specials. I also thought in the good old days there was no restriction.

Dodger

There was no blanket rule, however each class of loco and/or route had it's own restrictions as specified in the sectional appendices to the rule book...

For example on the Chester and Holyhead, Tender engines running tender first were subject to various restrictions and also on the 4 track sections were barred from the fast lines and so restricted to the slow lines which were mostly 50mph max speed regardless of which way round the loco was...

I think we can say that:-
As a general rule, tender locos would run forwards wherever possible. It is fair to say that crews on tender locos would not like running tender first from a point of view of visibility and comfort. Having looked through a few hundred photos of main and branch line trains I have not found a photo of a tender loco pulling a train tender first. Thats not to say it didn't happen but it suggests it was fairly rare.
Tank engines were preferred on branch lines and did not get turned. They would normally point in the direction that had the most uphill gradient in order to keep the firebox covered in water. There are many, many photos of tank engines running tender first

A few oddities found in the photos
1. Where banking locos had to bank through tunnels they would run backwards so the exhaust was behind the loco crew not in front. Loco crews were occasionally overcome by fumes, especially when banking.
2. I found an interesting photo of three locos coupled together running tender first on the main line in Devon. They were running light engine from Newton Abbot shed to Paignton to pull services from there. There was a turntable at Paignton until 1961 so I guess that it was easier and quicker to send the locos down the line pointing in the right direction for hauling the trains later in the day.
3. There was no turntable or shed at Newquay after 1933 but tender engines always travelled chimney first along this branch in both directions. There was a Y junction at Newquay which allowed locos to be turned.

I only know of 4 branches where tender engines were used on passenger trains. I cannot comment on the Fairford branch, but I believe there was a turntable at Fairford. A K1 or occasionally a V2 were used on the Alnwick branch. A standard class 4 2-6-0 was regularly used on the Swanage branch. A Standard class 5 4-6-0 stood in for a failed railbus on the Crieff branch. All the latter 3 branches the engines worked tender first in one direction.

The Swanage and Lymington branches used tender locos, including light pacifics, on Summer Saturday through trains and again they worked tender first in one direction. In the case of the Swanage branch the locos worked tender first to or from Bournemouth on empty stock or light engine leg.

Just looking at photos could just prove that people don't like taking pictures of locos running tender first.

Many of the smaller tender engines (and some big ones!) had tenders with cut-away sides to improve visibility when running tender first - http://kwvr.co.uk/history-78022/ has a picture of Std class 2 running tender first on a freight train in Doncaster.

You need to look at the loco types likely to be used on a branch line and then see which if any of the stations had a turntable.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

On the Wolverton to Newport Pagnell branch line the Ivatt 2-6-2s would depart Wolverton with a 4 coach train and, on arrival at Newport Pagnell would uncouple loco + 2 coaches, run round the other 2 coaches and then return not just bunker first but sandwiched between the coaches.
There was, however, a turning triangle just outside Wolverton station. It was one of my favourite spotting places as you could clearly see the 4 main lines from the hill in the middle of the triangle.

I think Chis Morris' post above is a good summary. I'd never really thought about banking engines, but it makes sense to me.

Tender first running:
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrchg2807.htm (Britannia)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrhar_lin2190.htm (unidentified 0-6-0)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwr_oldmil1448.htm (LMS 4F)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mra134.htm (BR Ivatt 4MT)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mr_lif829.htm (3F)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrwm412.htm (GWR 2-6-0 Aberdare)
http://www.southern-images.co.uk/lightbox/detail/516-30925-40646-Starbeck.html (double headed Schools & 2P, both tender first).

There were also situations where the available turntable wasn't big enough for the loco in question. On the Somerset & Dorset, 7F locos couldn't be turned at Templecombe, so they ran tender first between Templecombe and Evercreech where they'd be turned.

As I said before, if aiming for accuracy/prototypical operation then you need to look at the locos in use and where turn-tables were located. There's a reason lots of locos were fitted with tenders with narrow coal spaces and read cabs - to make running tender first easier.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.