There is a lot here about the exorbitant increases etc. over the years. However one thing I have noted is that frequently prices do not alter for a considerable period, while the manufacturers try to hold the price down as long as possible.. Then there is some form of financial cataclysm - big wage increases, raw material scarcity, foreign exchange variances on a massive scale - to name a few. This then forces the maker to raise the price at above what we would normally expect. Instead of having an annual increase of, say, 3%, they try to hold the price and are then forced into a 15% increase to defray such events.
Part of the reason we don't see the big discounts is that in recent years ForEx has meant very volatile currencies and also the Chinese floated the RMB, making it a part of the global currency exchange. Whilst it may still be a soft currency, it does fluctuate dramatically against the GBP, USD and EU, making for an unstable pricing structure.
At the same time, wages in China have escalated by over 100% so that impact is felt very suddenly by the maker and must be equally reflected in the price of the final goods. We have also seen an increase in the cost of both virgin and regrind plastics in the China market, where, unusually, the raw material is more expensive than elsewhere in the world. As someone has previously commented, companies are now seeking to off-shore production from China to cheaper labour markets. This is not, however, a short term fix as there is frequently a lack of sunk infrastructure in the proposed new country and there is certainly a lack of skilled labour. If you look at the various economic measure systems, China has a comparatively well educated and skilled labour force, due to the move from a factor driven to an efficiency driven economy. This provides a reasonably stable basis for production but also does raise costs.
At the same time, we are frequently not comparing on an equitable basis. Many are commenting on the cost of a loco at, say, 100 GBP today. What is this in terms of average wage and measurable disposable income and how does that compare  with 10, 20 and 30 years ago? If you elect to use this comparison method, do not try to recall what you were earning at that point in time, but rather seek hard data about average weekly wages so that the data has a specific reference point.
Sorry for the essay and I hope my 2 bobs worth is of interest to some.
Cheers, Bill.

sorry guys, maybe I am missing the plot completely. Why should a manufacterer be open about margins, cost prices etc etc. That's an internal thing and non of each of us business. Can you point me in a direction which states that this is a legal right ?

As a consumer you have only on power full tool If you don t like it don't buy it.

Quote from: class37025 on May 13, 2016, 09:06:32 PM
Is it me, or are we not now getting the reduction we used to get on new models.
I seem to remember that when a new loco came out, at £x, after a few months it dropped to £y, I believe something to do with a pricing 'rule' from Bachmann.

The only known 'rule' banded about is that the maximum discount on new release is 15% for first 3 months - it's why you'll never find it cheaper than this for the first 3 months. After that it is supposedly ok to discount further, but it seems retailers don't, with some exceptions of models that have clearly been poor sellers and stacked high on the shelves for ages.

I also am suspicious of the secondhand market - the two biggest retailers have moved into this in a fairly big way, but both pitch secondhand at frankly ludicrous prices (ofter little below the new price, even with defects declared). This is just plain odd, and smells dodgey to me.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on May 13, 2016, 10:50:45 PM

I also am suspicious of the secondhand market - the two biggest retailers have moved into this in a fairly big way, but both pitch secondhand at frankly ludicrous prices (ofter little below the new price, even with defects declared). This is just plain odd, and smells dodgey to me.

Cheers,
Alan

Going back to the basic question of what effect these recent price rises will have - whether the market can cope with them without serious consequences, these moves indicate to me that new model turnover has already been hit quite hard and affected companies trading positions. So they have enlarged their positions in a sector where turnover and profit levels might be as large overall on lower priced secondhand where they have no trading restrictions placed on them, as on new items.

I agree some secondhand prices seem rather high, far too high in many cases as you say, but my experience with N secondhand through local model shops is that it carries a premium over OO because there is just mostly less of it around, and especially at good quality levels. N gaugers have always seemed more circumspect and appreciative of their models, and tend to hang onto them unlike many in OO do.

No easy or quick answer with any of this is there. No doubt we will all carry on in one way or another.

Izzy

Quote from: Izzy on May 14, 2016, 10:49:01 AM
I agree some secondhand prices seem rather high, far too high in many cases as you say, but my experience with N secondhand through local model shops is that it carries a premium over OO because there is just mostly less of it around, and especially at good quality levels. N gaugers have always seemed more circumspect and appreciative of their models, and tend to hang onto them unlike many in OO do.

I have taken to buying 2nd hand more and more, particularly from outfits like Rails of Sheffield's ebay shop.
Agreed.. some prices are high, sometimes very high, but there are always bargains to be had.
You also have to remember that, unlike new locos, they are always test run by the likes of Rails and, they offer a reasonable warranty. This is worth paying a little more for.

It's an interesting return of the way things were in the early 2000s - no new production which produced high secondhand prices (actually, ludicrous secondhand prices - £150 for an old 101 DMU I recall).

Now the same is happening, not primarily due to a lack of production (well in some cases maybe), but also due to a lack of ability/willing to access that production due to its cost. It then serves perversely to push up secondhand prices (even of ancient models) to levels around new, or even above.

For those who've been in the hobby a while - do you recall the early 2000s. Did you buy inflated secondhand priced stock? Did your spending end up squeezed? Or did you abstain from buying at all?

The history is interesting on this - it might help inform how things will pan out now.

Cheers,
Alan

In the early 2000s I went into "feeding frenzy" mode and made a lot of rule 1 purchases (too many).

Best regards,


Joe

Quote from: Dr Al on May 14, 2016, 02:18:52 PM

For those who've been in the hobby a while - do you recall the early 2000s. Did you buy inflated secondhand priced stock? Did your spending end up squeezed? Or did you abstain from buying at all?

What I did probably isn't relevant, Alan, as I was in a very well paid full time job then (I took early retirement just 3 years ago) so had vastly more disposable income. However, regardless of being employed or not, my only second hand purchases are limited to rolling stock sourced either at our local model railway emporium or from exhibitions I've been to where I can have a good look/see it run on a layout. I have not bought second hand from EBay or by mail order.

Quote from: Dr Al on May 14, 2016, 02:18:52 PM

For those who've been in the hobby a while - do you recall the early 2000s. Did you buy inflated secondhand priced stock? Did your spending end up squeezed? Or did you abstain from buying at all?

I bought very little during this time (being a little hard up didn't help things). I recall that I was unsure as to the direction that n gauge would go. I felt for a time that Bachmann might withdraw their support for the gauge. It was Dapol's emergence into the market that I felt things were looking up.

At the moment I feel more confident in the future, however I do wonder how much commitment both of the big players have in the longer term (will they sell up???).

Hello all,

The first N Gauge model I bought was the Kato Eurostar in, I think, 1996 but once I realised that its quality was way in advance of anything by Farish I was a little disillusioned, until I discovered CJM, TPM and the NGS kits.

As these were only niche items, I then tended to focus on my own projects to develop new chassis based around Kato parts, or on scenics for the club layout etc.

Then I was asked to get involved with the NGS kits, and that took up a lot of my time.

It was only once Bachmann's production came fully on stream that I started seriously buying Farish stuff, as the quality was so vastly improved.

cheers

Ben A.

I have been in and out of N Gauge so many times I feel like a duck getting in and out of the water, first started in the early 1990s, like a dog eating its own vomit I keep coming back to N gauge 

The only success I have had with N gauge has been with Japanese and American models but being a British steam fan I became discontent and went back to OO Gauge.

Well its time to have another crack at N Gauge, this time on the cheap, the cost of locos these days has put me right out of the ball park plus having read the latest reports on locos I still worry about quality.

So being a bit of a non conformist I decided to go my own way, this involves using Kato N gauge mechanisms under my own design plasticard built shells, there are dozens of small and sometimes weired looking British Diesel shunters out there so that will be the direction for me to head, the mechanisms are cheap from Japan but the quality is great.

Looking over the price diffrences at Hattons seems to be a little customer gouging going on there, late year stuff being a lot cheaper than early stuff, I know this much my layout is looking to be two years in the making and I will be buying nothing new on wheels until it's completed. lets see if the likes of Hattons and Farrish are still in business then.

Quote from: Cypherus on May 18, 2016, 01:14:32 AM
Looking over the price diffrences at Hattons seems to be a little customer gouging going on there...

I think you need to open and run a model railway shop. If you think Hattons is making huge margins on the items they sell, and you'd settle for smaller margins, your shop would be the cheapest in Britain and I'd buy all my stuff from you!

In all seriousness though, "gouging" is a strong word. It means they're ripping off the customer; what Ticketmaster do for example. Hattons have plenty of bargains, and while they might not have the loco you want at a pocket money price, if you shop carefully and moderate your expectations a bit, you'll get a lot for your money there.

Cheers, NeMo

Yep, in the end you can walk away, but with
Ticketmaster you are stuck and if you want
to see a particular band or whatever you
have to bite the bullet.

Even after some 17 pages I fail to see beyond my point that "you spend what pocket money you have got" - That sort of makes the price of stuff irrelevant, you just take longer to acquire what you wish for.

It may well be somewhat harsh (but true!) this thread should really be sub-titled "I cant have everything I want and now!" - which is  different point to whether things are actually expensive.
IF anything they cheap, even now.