Had the Bachmann rep call in today, apart from the obivous topics  ( Hornby, Prices the weather, traffic etc) we got round to what is and isn't popular in the hobby these days.

This came about because a lot of what I wanted wasn't in stock, or in his view "wasn't moving", top of this list was steam locos.

What I hear you cry!
I ended up buying more Diesel than Steam locos and most of those were in the BR Blue colours, my own experince of having two Class 26's and a Class 27 in stock and not sold made that decision.

We came to the conclusion that there are more people in the hobby today in the diesel market, because they are too young to even have seen a steam loco running in anger, and they only now see them on heritage lines.

Discuss ?

On a pragmatic note, the diesels also tend to run better, be easier to put on the track, are not so susceptible to damage and haul more than the steamers...

(Yes I know it is a generalisation and there are exceptions on both sides.)

Quote from: Ian Morton on April 22, 2016, 08:55:29 PM
On a pragmatic note, the diesels also tend to run better, be easier to put on the track, are not so susceptible to damage and haul more than the steamers...

Agreed. For a given price point, say, £100, it may well be a lot easier to find a strong and reliable motor that fits inside the relatively roomy "box on wheels" that is a diesel compared with either a steam loco tender or boiler.

The "easily damaged" element is certainly true for steam locos, though a fair few Dapol 73s seem to have lost their hooters over the years!

I wonder also if the modellers willing and able to spend money are those interested in the post-1968 scene? If you're in your 40s now, you probably got interested in trains during the 70s or 80s; even the youngest folks who remember steam in service, on the other hand, will be either approaching retirement or retired already, and their spending money might not be as stretchable to the increasing costs as younger age groups. It certainly looks like the various kickstarter projects favour post-privatisation prototypes that appeal to the younger modellers with, perhaps, deeper pockets and the willingness to pay for top-notch specifications and detailing.

Cheers, NeMo

Based on the often mentioned idea that the typical modeller is late 40s/early 50s and models what is remembered from ones mid teens train spotting....

That would make some sense - though I feel Mr Mortons post above is at least as representative of the truth of the matter

FWIW, and I'm not exactly the typical UK n gauge modeler (I'm American for a start), but I'm 25 (which I think is still young) and am only interested in steam. I have a diesel or two I wouldn't mind having, but my interests are in steam, especially pre-grouping! I think heritage railways are one of the things that might help keep people interested in steam and I think an interest in history will drive others, but diesels and especially modern image stuff seems to be all the rage right now with younger modelers in general (at least on the Facebook groups) and I sometimes fear for the future. I think part of the reason Bachmann has been having trouble selling them is that they don't offer a steam engine suitable for a small layout at present, apart from the Jinty, which their site lists as out of stock. The upcoming 64xx and J72 should both do well, especially the former, as it is actually appropriate for an Autocoach, unlike Dapol's 57xx. GWR locos tend to sell better as far as Grouping steam goes, but I am excited and I know at least a few others are as well about the J72, which looks very handsome in the photos. A lot of n gaugers have a small space and I think Bachmann consistently offering mostly large passenger engines limits their appeal (I'm aware they have other classes, but this seems to be their focus).

On a separate note, it is worth pointing out that people can't possibly 'only' or even primarily be interested in what they remember, as that would mean that most people who were modeling pre-grouping would be 100+ and most people modeling grouping would be 70+ and numbers from OO at least don't seem to bear that out (where they sell a lot more pre-grouping locos and grouping locos than in n gauge). I would argue that lots of people who model steam do so because they are interested in the history of their area and steam is a part of that, but I may be way off base!

Just my thoughts If I've somehow managed to offend anyone, I apologize, that was certainly not my intent!

All the best,
Philip

You are not that far off base there Phillip.....But at a (well educated) guess, 75% of the market for model trains is not to what one would call "modellers with layouts" , but collectors, who maybe give their trains a spin round the track sometimes.

Maybe a credible reason that steam locos might not be "shifting" is because for the last what, 10-12 months there has been absolutely nothing new out of Barwell to purchase apart from re-treads of the "Scot" with nothing totally new on the horizon either...

I have had 4MT Tanks and J72s on order since announced but absolutely no clue at present when they will be delivered in spite of "April/May" for the 4MT stated and now it seems not. I have a recently announced Late Crest Ivatt on order too and at present ditto...

By contrast the next boat will apparently have plenty of transition coaches 3 different 108 DMUs including the sound one, not a single steam loco.

The simple reality is that one can make the "facts" fit whatever scenario one  likes to present the conclusion one wants but alternatively people can't can't buy new steam locos if they aren't made/delivered!!

Roy

Quote from: Roy L S on April 22, 2016, 09:46:17 PM
Maybe a credible reason that steam locos might not be "shifting" is because for the last what, 10-12 months there has been absolutely nothing new out of Barwell to purchase apart from re-treads of the "Scot" with nothing totally new on the horizon either...

I have had 4MT Tanks and J72s on order since announced but absolutely no clue at present when they will be delivered in spite of "April/May" for the 4MT stated and now it seems not. I have a recently announced Late Crest Ivatt on order too and at present ditto...

By contrast the next boat will apparently have plenty of transition coaches 3 different 108 DMUs including the sound one, not a single steam loco.

The simple reality is that one can make the "facts" fit whatever scenario one  likes to present the conclusion one wants but alternatively people can't can't buy new steam locos if they aren't made/delivered!!

Roy

Agreed.

I was dreadfully disappointed by the 2016 'announcements,' as all of the steam locos had already been announced. No news at all from my perspective. I'm excited about the Castle, the J72 and the 64xx, but of those three we are only likely to see the 64xx this year, unless the castle comes to market more quickly than I'm anticipating.

These are some valid points, however there is always the case of demand creates supply, the same company only had one 57XXX pannier in stock, that wasn't even available in BR Black.
There will however be a lot of 67XX on / in the next container, if and when it ever appears on that slow boat from China.
Perhaps a  more alarming stat is that there were only two "train sets" I could order  to attract the young "person" tugging at his Dads / Mum's, sleeve both were in N, Cornish Riviera and Country coal, I ordered the country coal because i didn't feel the whiskered diesel included in the Cornish Riviera was that popular a loco.

No sets available at all in OO ( very disappointing) yet the train packs were available,  even though these represent amazing value for money, I don't see them as a door into the hobby, even if a Hall and two coaches can be bought for the of Hall on it's own.
All these train packs being available are steam, which only (IMO) reinforces my view that the hobby is ( in general) moving away from steam.

Graham
Don't just think of Sets as a door into the hobby....They are often bought by men as an impulse "oh lets see about this" kinda purchase - Something to play with when your mates come around.....

Quote from: JasonBz on April 22, 2016, 10:38:41 PM
Graham
Don't just think of Sets as a door into the hobby....They are often bought by men as an impulse "oh lets see about this" kinda purchase - Something to play with when your mates come around.....

Granted, but I still think some shops are missing a trick by putting them on the "top" shelf, I have seen them so high, even I at 5'8" have to crane my neck or at the least step back, the latter in some shops is not possible.
In our shop we are desperately trying to keep everything in view for everyone, difficult, but at least we are trying!

Quote from: Graham Walters on April 22, 2016, 10:49:12 PM

Quote from: JasonBz on April 22, 2016, 10:38:41 PM
Graham
Don't just think of Sets as a door into the hobby....They are often bought by men as an impulse "oh lets see about this" kinda purchase - Something to play with when your mates come around.....

Granted, but I still think some shops are missing a trick by putting them on the "top" shelf, I have seen them so high, even I at 5'8" have to crane my neck or at the least step back, the latter in some shops is not possible.
In our shop we are desperately trying to keep everything in view for everyone, difficult, but at least we are trying!

Sets are often a good deal and there is one I'm kicking myself for not getting as it came with all kinds of extras.... Oh well! In a lot of US shops I've been in, sets are kept near or on the floor, which allows them to be easily accessed without getting in the way of wall stock as much. I think this approach is good as I always find myself picking them up when I'm in, even knowing I don't want them, and if I were in a shop with UK models and they were that accessible.... God help me I would probably have several (even an 'Orribly Oversized set or two....). I definitely think you are on the right track trying to keep everything visible and accessible, Graham 

It also doesn't help that Dapol pretty much killed their market for steamers with some of their design flaws and generally dodgy models, so even the percentage that worked well for people and do look very good while doing it, couldn't really shift the image. Graham Farish having the odd spot of quality control bother hasn't exactly helped there.

2nd hand steamers still seem to go really well on eBay etc.

There is the factor that steam engine models are generally more complicated as has been mentioned, so costs, QA etc. are all harder on wallets at a time when people don't really have the money and are likely to have to withdraw pre-orders when items are delayed too long and appear at "just the wrong time".

Hi Graham,

This will probably sound silly (and possibly sexist, don't mean to be), so apologies for that, but somehow you need to get women and children into your shop.

I presume most modellers are men of various generations and specific era interest but if they've come with wives and children there's nothing like some steam trains running round to fascinate the kids and interest the 'not really interested' wives to say 'aren't they beautiful'.

Have seen and heard it many times. I was in Gaugemaster a few years ago and all the women were looking at the steam loco cabinet. Even my wife wanted me to get one. I said, I'm here to buy a French electric locomotive and they're British and steam. The woman next to my wife said to her 'bully him into getting one, my husband's buying some ugly diesel thing with EWS on the side, I'm going to have a word' (seriously)

My wife nearly bought one for herself. It was going to have to be a green one though 

With regard to ebay, I don't think I would buy (although I have one as it's no longer available) a steam loco on there as there is surely too much that did or could go wrong so brand new is what I'd do.

I'll stop rambling now but you did say discuss. Luckily you're all asleep (or you will be now 

Cheers weave 

Quote from: NeMo on April 22, 2016, 09:16:00 PM
I wonder also if the modellers willing and able to spend money are those interested in the post-1968 scene? If you're in your 40s now, you probably got interested in trains during the 70s or 80s

Guilty as charged, m'lud. Blue boxes are my motive power of choice. Actually I'd like to buy more kettles, but it's only recently I've realised how little I know about them, and will need to plan carefully. The magic of the internet (all those free videos) does help get a better idea of things.

My sole acquisition so far is a Farish 4MT, for nostalgic reasons, while it's a beautiful little machine it also feels very fragile, nicer to look at than to run, which also dampens my enthusiasm a bit.

I presume Union Mills is doing pretty well for kettle sales.

Quote from: NeMo on April 22, 2016, 09:16:00 PMIt certainly looks like the various kickstarter projects favour post-privatisation prototypes that appeal to the younger modellers with, perhaps, deeper pockets and the willingness to pay for top-notch specifications and detailing.

It could also be that the range of historical prototypes is just too large for any one to gain enough support. Personally I won't touch anything post-privatisation, way too modern and garish and I have no connection with it.