I have to ask - is the national rail logo designed to show direction of travel for uk railways? Left (top) track is clockwise and right (bottom) track is counter clockwise?

One step forward, one step back?

Aka the Arrows of Indecision.

http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/the-untold-story-of-the-british-rail-logo-11363968427192
http://www.doublearrow.co.uk/home.htm

Is it insulfrog or electrofrog ?

It is the pre-cursor to the smartlogo. If you put it at the bottom of a loop the top track becomes counterclockwise, and the bottom track clockwise!

Imitated in later years by railways all over the world who started adding directional arrows to their logos when they stopped using their initials. Think NS, Renfe, even Amtrak.  Of course some like SNCF, FS and CFL just kept their initials and changed their adornments every few years.

Hello all,

If you study the design you'll see it's remarkably subtle.  Change any one of a number of variables, even slightly, and the balance of the entire thing is thrown off.

I hadn't really appreciated this until I had to draw it for livery diagrams etc.

For example:  look carefully and you will notice that the "ends" of the arrows flare very slightly - without this they look to skinny.

In my view it's an amazing piece of visionary work and more than 50 years after it was originally produced is still in use because, quite simply, no one has been able to come up with anything better.

cheers

Ben A.

Maybe it's no coincidence that, when building a UK outline model railway, the outer loop is the 'Up' line and travels clockwise

The logo is always shown with the top arrow facing left and yes, it does correspond to the direction of rail travel. The exception (that proves the proverbial rule) is on Sealink ship funnels where the top arrow always pointed forward.

I agree. So, Ben, do we know the designer of the symbol and story behind it?

Quote from: Bealman on April 02, 2016, 10:55:08 AM
I agree. So, Ben, do we know the designer of the symbol and story behind it?

Railsquid's link is a good read.

I understand that on double track railways, the direction of travel is, except in France, the same as on the roads. IE in GB and the Commonwealth we drive on the left and Railway trains run on the left hand track. This is also true of Japan. Everywhere else they drive on the right and run trains on the right-handed track. The exception is France, where cars run on the right and trains on the left. The logo which heads this thread originated in the UK, so shows the direction of travel as being on the left-hand track. Roger.

PS The best way to get an answer to your question on the interweb thingy is to post your own answer and wait for someone clever to tell you how your answer is wrong...

Quote from: newportnobby on April 02, 2016, 09:54:32 AM
Maybe it's no coincidence that, when building a UK outline model railway, the outer loop is the 'Up' line and travels clockwise

Unless, of course "London" is off to the right.............

....as is the case on both of my layouts, the outer loop is decidedly 'Down'!

Cheers  Jon     

As Ben has noted a classic British design icon - as designed it was of free diemension -so it is by proportional alteration its size is changed - but we happily call it a 2`6" arrow on locos etc!
IIRC correctly it was a board competition and the concept was created by an Irish gent. Brian Haresnape Journey by design and several other books gives the story and I suspect Goggle/ wikipedia is your friend.

Due to the almost thought through process of privatisation it came as a shock to DoT when County councils asked for funding to resign for a replacement design- then yet to be created - the hiatus this caused resulted in a no change decsision hence we can still enjoy the arrows of indescision across the nation!
Robert       

Quote from: rogercrossley on April 02, 2016, 12:16:09 PMPS The best way to get an answer to your question on the interweb thingy is to post your own answer and wait for someone clever to tell you how your answer is wrong...

Quote from: rogercrossley on April 02, 2016, 12:16:09 PM
I understand that on double track railways, the direction of travel is, except in France, the same as on the roads.

Exception within France: Paris Metro (also Madrid, Rome and Buenos Aires are left-hand side). Belgium is also a left-handed railway country, and parts of Austria.

Quote from: rogercrossley on April 02, 2016, 12:16:09 PMIE in GB and the Commonwealth we drive on the left and Railway trains run on the left hand track. This is also true of Japan.

But not of Canada, while some distinctly non-Commonwealth countries such as Thailand and Indonesia.

See here for all the gory details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic

Quote from: PostModN66 on April 02, 2016, 12:22:14 PM

Quote from: newportnobby on April 02, 2016, 09:54:32 AM
Maybe it's no coincidence that, when building a UK outline model railway, the outer loop is the 'Up' line and travels clockwise

Unless, of course "London" is off to the right.............

....as is the case on both of my layouts, the outer loop is decidedly 'Down'!

Cheers  Jon     

But the top arrow of indecision (outer loop = Up line) does point to the right and travel is 'Up' to the capital so London would be off to the right