Hi Ben,
Yep, that nicely sums up what I was trying to say.  I agree completely.

Quote from: Ben A on March 02, 2016, 10:37:30 AM

I think the obsession with price is harming our hobby.

By the sound of it we all agree on this.  Unfortunately it doesn't appear that there are enough people who agree with us to make a big enough market.
However, I'm encouraged by the rapid improvement over recent years and the relative growth of N in the UK.  I'm hopeful a bit of patience from us will be rewarded in the not too distant future by a greater range of offerings from a greater number of suppliers.  Your own venture is a very encouraging sign from my perspective. 

I personally would like good quality  products that do not suffer from historical problems that never seem to be addressed and are reliable and as someone else said if there is to be a removeable part for fitting DCC decoders make it possible for all capabilities.
Rant over
Graham

Quote from: Ben A on March 02, 2016, 10:37:30 AM
But imagine if a new entrant came to the market with a really good Class 66, say, but it was £195.  It had a super smooth and powerful chassis with a good quality motor and brass or similar gears, really fine details, NEM couplers and was really well printed.  Would you buy it, or stick with the Farish models at £100?

This is a killer question.  My view is that we currently get amazing value for money.  Both Farish and Dapol 66s to me are plenty "good enough"; and I have never even paid £100 for one; looking out for bargains I guess I have paid on average about £50-£60.....and I have about ten of them!

For exhibiting I would say four Farish 66s in different liveries are of more entertainment value to the spectator than one super-dooper one for £200.  I might buy one for a particular high profile shunting role, but stick with the cheaper ones for general train running.

If the cheaper ones had never existed it would be a different story; but I don't think I would have £2000 worth of "Sheds!"

Cheers  Jon 

Quote from: Ben A on March 02, 2016, 10:37:30 AM


I think the obsession with price is harming our hobby.

A very "British" thing it seems and I do agree.

Personally I think the quality we currently see in British N for the price being asked is very good indeed and to ask for any more for the same money totally unrealistic.

Accept we will pay more and buy fewer models is what I feel people need to do.

Personally I plan my purchases more carefully now and buy less on a whim and I find my budget still stretches a fair way, helped it has to be said by the slowdown in the pace of releases!

But please let's not suggest compromising the incredibly detailed models we now see to make things cheaper. As I said on the Farish 16/17 thread. If you want cheaper simpler models which run well Union Mills are just the job.

Roy

Hi
Have Hornby ever been in N gauge in there own right (rolling stock wise) in the early years it was with Trix / Minitrix utilising their existing chassis in most cases with UK outline bodies & now with the last offerings from the Arnold stable.
Whilst the quality of the latest models has improved compared with early years in N gauge the quality / reliability issue is still very prevalent.
the costs are creeping ever closer to the likes of Fleischmann but the running quality and QA is not, i am quite happy paying higher costs for British outline but i would expect the running qualities out of the box to be better.
I will quote the Farish split gear fiasco as an example, well documented, recognised by the manufacturer but nothing appeared to be done about it for years! i for one had brand new models out the box fail before doing a lap of the layout.
in an earlier post it was mentioned about the cheaper end of the hobby is needed to encourage new modelers the reliability issue is a concern, how many modelers have we heard of that have deserted the hobby or the scale due to bad running, reliability issues etc.

Tony

According to my very good 2 sources ( close enough to be listened to) Arnold were working on 3 new UK loco's when the BB came out.

1 Steam
1 Electric
1 Diesel

These were shrink downs of OO versions of the same.
The steam was a wonderful choice, the electric left me scratching my head as to sales, and the Diesel was just plain bonkers and a complete waste of time and lots of money.

Besides it was a complete departure from their 'trains of the world' ethos at the
time.

However, I can only presume the mistake of the BB, instead of a pendo bit them in the bum, especially as they were reduced as direct sales items almost at launch.

With some clear thinking, and I mentioned this in my report to Hornby ( that Hornby asked for by the way) going into N gauge could, along with O gauge, be nice little earners for them providing they don't set their sales targets too high.

Quote from: A.Carter (BiG-T) on March 02, 2016, 12:18:12 PM
Hi
Have Hornby ever been in N gauge in there own right (rolling stock wise) in the early years it was with Trix / Minitrix utilising their existing chassis in most cases with UK outline bodies & now with the last offerings from the Arnold stable.
Whilst the quality of the latest models has improved compared with early years in N gauge the quality / reliability issue is still very prevalent.
the costs are creeping ever closer to the likes of Fleischmann but the running quality and QA is not, i am quite happy paying higher costs for British outline but i would expect the running qualities out of the box to be better.
I will quote the Farish split gear fiasco as an example, well documented, recognised by the manufacturer but nothing appeared to be done about it for years! i for one had brand new models out the box fail before doing a lap of the layout.
in an earlier post it was mentioned about the cheaper end of the hobby is needed to encourage new modelers the reliability issue is a concern, how many modelers have we heard of that have deserted the hobby or the scale due to bad running, reliability issues etc.

Tony

I'd agree with you on the current 'main' British outline manufacturers QA not being up to scratch, but then again, both Farish and Dapol are essentially "budget" manufacturers compared to continental models. Or worse, they're sort of in the middle where the prices are above budget, but the quality is still based on old models and tends towards what would be budget models.

Hornby for instance appears to keep its old models available in its budget "Railroad" range. (although prices nowadays on that seem to beyond the train set level). Farish and Dapol are attempting to move towards proper pricing, detail and QA, but not quite there yet.

Quote from: DJM Dave on March 02, 2016, 12:22:09 PM
According to my very good 2 sources ( close enough to be listened to) Arnold were working on 3 new UK loco's when the BB came out.

1 Steam
1 Electric
1 Diesel

These were shrink downs of OO versions of the same.
The steam was a wonderful choice, the electric left me scratching my head as to sales, and the Diesel was just plain bonkers and a complete waste of time and lots of money.

Besides it was a complete departure from their 'trains of the world' ethos at the
time.

However, I can only presume the mistake of the BB, instead of a pendo bit them in the bum, especially as they were reduced as direct sales items almost at launch.

With some clear thinking, and I mentioned this in my report to Hornby ( that Hornby asked for by the way) going into N gauge could, along with O gauge, be nice little earners for them providing they don't set their sales targets too high.

Dave, thanks for the insight.

Are you confirming in your post that these 3 projects are now binned?

Scotty

off topic, but I wonder how much the detail bag for Farish mk.1s added to the cost.
brake pipes may be ok, but two types of corridor end blank ?
especially when supplied with blue / grey schemes where apparently they were not used.
why not do like Dapol did with their loco detail sets, snow ploughs, screw couplings etc, and make them a separate item for those who want them ?
we are after all talking about N gauge. how many people just bin, or chuck in a box, the detail bits because they can't use them because they aren't applicable /
rant over
alan

Quote from: class37025 on March 02, 2016, 01:03:26 PM
off topic, but I wonder how much the detail bag for Farish mk.1s added to the cost.
brake pipes may be ok, but two types of corridor end blank ?
especially when supplied with blue / grey schemes where apparently they were not used.
why not do like Dapol did with their loco detail sets, snow ploughs, screw couplings etc, and make them a separate item for those who want them ?
we are after all talking about N gauge. how many people just bin, or chuck in a box, the detail bits because they can't use them because they aren't applicable /
rant over
alan

I'd guess (and those more specifically familiar with plastics manufacturing can probably correct me on this) it doesn't make a lot of difference to the price as all the bits are moulded on the same sprue and for such a small size having less on the sprue doesn't make it any more economical.

Including the same bits in every livery version probably makes it a little cheaper for those models as you don't have to retrain the packaging line to not put that part in for that version.

Quote from: class37025 on March 02, 2016, 01:03:26 PM
off topic, but I wonder how much the detail bag for Farish mk.1s added to the cost.
brake pipes may be ok, but two types of corridor end blank ?
especially when supplied with blue / grey schemes where apparently they were not used.
why not do like Dapol did with their loco detail sets, snow ploughs, screw couplings etc, and make them a separate item for those who want them ?
we are after all talking about N gauge. how many people just bin, or chuck in a box, the detail bits because they can't use them because they aren't applicable /

For a long time I had no idea what those extra Mk1 bits were for... they don't even include a bit of paper with information.

Speaking entirely personally, I buy locomotives to run, not look at through a magnifying glass, so I'd be happy with decent but not hyper-detailed reliable models with the possibility, if I ever wanted it, to add the precise jumper combination the locomotive had on a wet Saturday afternoon in 1983 as an option either from the manufacturer or a third party. But it looks like the economics of production for the British market dictate it's easier to supply the bits whether you want them or not. Presumably I'm in a minority so will have to live with it (which luckily I can at the moment, and yes I have signed up for a RevolutioN 320/321).

Historically I have not had a problem with any of my old traditional Arnold stuff or my two Brighton Belles. But I have had problems with poor assembly on SNCF X73500 railcars which I bought cheaply from people frustrated with having to re-solder wires and correctly set up light guides. By many accounts the recent SNCF CC72000 diesels also suffer from poorly soldered connections and a decoder mounting which requires some contortions to use. The latter appears to be a feature of designing the chassis for a future CC6500/CC21000 electric variant which has virtually no headroom above cant-rail level.

I think it would be a shame for us all if Hornby/Arnold have lost interest in further UK traction, but I cannot help thinking that if they do continue we might be complaining about QC as we do with other mainstream suppliers.

Quote from: class37025 on March 02, 2016, 01:03:26 PM
off topic, but I wonder how much the detail bag for Farish mk.1s added to the cost.
brake pipes may be ok, but two types of corridor end blank ?
especially when supplied with blue / grey schemes where apparently they were not used.
why not do like Dapol did with their loco detail sets, snow ploughs, screw couplings etc, and make them a separate item for those who want them ?

FWIW my Dapol Western, which this thread encouraged me to dig out and enquire about warranty repairs as it looks like the smoke has escaped from the electrickery, comes with a baggie containing two types of coupling and a third bogie (presumably so you can have one without a coupling on it).

Quote from: ScottyStitch on March 02, 2016, 12:49:23 PM

Quote from: DJM Dave on March 02, 2016, 12:22:09 PM
According to my very good 2 sources ( close enough to be listened to) Arnold were working on 3 new UK loco's when the BB came out.

1 Steam
1 Electric
1 Diesel

These were shrink downs of OO versions of the same.
The steam was a wonderful choice, the electric left me scratching my head as to sales, and the Diesel was just plain bonkers and a complete waste of time and lots of money.

Besides it was a complete departure from their 'trains of the world' ethos at the
time.

However, I can only presume the mistake of the BB, instead of a pendo bit them in the bum, especially as they were reduced as direct sales items almost at launch.

With some clear thinking, and I mentioned this in my report to Hornby ( that Hornby asked for by the way) going into N gauge could, along with O gauge, be nice little earners for them providing they don't set their sales targets too high.

Dave, thanks for the insight.

Are you confirming in your post that these 3 projects are now binned?

Scotty

Hi Scotty,

No, not at all, because I simply don't know.
However this was 3 years ago and I wouldn't think we'd wait that long for a new UK outline N gauge model from them, to be honest.......I suppose 'who knows' what the future holds, however the 2 of the 3 were real head scratchers.

Quote from: DJM Dave on March 02, 2016, 03:04:04 PM

Quote from: ScottyStitch on March 02, 2016, 12:49:23 PM

Quote from: DJM Dave on March 02, 2016, 12:22:09 PM
According to my very good 2 sources ( close enough to be listened to) Arnold were working on 3 new UK loco's when the BB came out.

1 Steam
1 Electric
1 Diesel

These were shrink downs of OO versions of the same.
The steam was a wonderful choice, the electric left me scratching my head as to sales, and the Diesel was just plain bonkers and a complete waste of time and lots of money.

Besides it was a complete departure from their 'trains of the world' ethos at the
time.

However, I can only presume the mistake of the BB, instead of a pendo bit them in the bum, especially as they were reduced as direct sales items almost at launch.

With some clear thinking, and I mentioned this in my report to Hornby ( that Hornby asked for by the way) going into N gauge could, along with O gauge, be nice little earners for them providing they don't set their sales targets too high.

Dave, thanks for the insight.

Are you confirming in your post that these 3 projects are now binned?

Scotty

Hi Scotty,

No, not at all, because I simply don't know.
However this was 3 years ago and I wouldn't think we'd wait that long for a new UK outline N gauge model from them, to be honest.......I suppose 'who knows' what the future holds, however the 2 of the 3 were real head scratchers.

Intriguing....