Quote from: PaulCheffus on February 21, 2016, 07:49:46 PM

Quote from: Formerly NtasticShop on February 21, 2016, 07:32:47 PM
This is not anything like comparing 2 types of sand, it annoys the hell out of me every year when I see 2mmfs models in the NGS competition amazing models yes but not N Gauge. I would suggest that that the models have to be displayed on Code 55 track and next to a Stove R. That would certainly show up how small some of the locos and such have been.

Hi

So my entry in 2009 should not have been allowed then as it used as a base the BH Enterprises coach shell which are actually to 2mm scale.

Cheers

Paul

Depends on what track standard it was built to run on 9mm or 2mmfs if it was for 2mmfs enter it in they competition.

Quote from: Formerly NtasticShop on February 21, 2016, 08:23:34 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on February 21, 2016, 07:49:46 PM

Quote from: Formerly NtasticShop on February 21, 2016, 07:32:47 PM
This is not anything like comparing 2 types of sand, it annoys the hell out of me every year when I see 2mmfs models in the NGS competition amazing models yes but not N Gauge. I would suggest that that the models have to be displayed on Code 55 track and next to a Stove R. That would certainly show up how small some of the locos and such have been.

Hi

So my entry in 2009 should not have been allowed then as it used as a base the BH Enterprises coach shell which are actually to 2mm scale.

Cheers

Paul

Depends on what track standard it was built to run on 9mm or 2mmfs if it was for 2mmfs enter it in they competition.

Hi

In this instance it was built to run on 9mm track, however one of my other entries was based on a Farish Mk2 coach but had 2mm SA wheels in for my other layout so that should be disqualified according to you just because the wheels were to a different standard.

My models are built by me using whatever I find suitable to get the end result and I don't see why a model built to 2mm SA wheel standards can't be included in a NGS competition as the only difference is the wheels. You might as well start disqualifying models built from some kits that are marketed as N gauge but are actually 2mm scale.

What about those people who use EasiTrac for their plain track work but Peco for the points. Should their layouts not feature in the journal as the majority of the track is 9.42mm gauge?

Cheers

Paul

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on February 21, 2016, 08:36:36 PM
In this instance it was built to run on 9mm track,

Then it's an N gauge model. Congratulations on the win!

Quote from: PaulCheffus on February 21, 2016, 08:36:36 PM
however one of my other entries was based on a Farish Mk2 coach but had 2mm SA wheels in for my other layout so that should be disqualified according to you just because the wheels were to a different standard.

Obviously if the model was made in such a way you could swap different wheelsets in and out depending on the layout you were playing with at the time, then that's fine too! Couldn't care less where you bought the wheels or axles from.

But I'd suggest leaving the 9mm track wheels in place while taking the photo though if you were entering it for the NGS competition! 

Quote from: PaulCheffus on February 21, 2016, 08:36:36 PM
My models are built by me using whatever I find suitable to get the end result and I don't see why a model built to 2mm SA wheel standards can't be included in a NGS competition as the only difference is the wheels. You might as well start disqualifying models built from some kits that are marketed as N gauge but are actually 2mm scale.

It's really not up to you (or me) to determine what counts as N gauge or what the Society is meant to do. That's all in the NGS Handbook.

The Introduction explains what N gauge is, including the British, American/Continental and Japanese variations, but then goes on to state that 2mm finescale, "is a specialist scale and is not really part of the N gauge family" and then goes on to explain that buildings and accessories can be used on N gauge layouts even though locos and rolling stock can't.

Now looking at the Constitution, the phrase "N gauge" is used several times, but not once is "2mm" used. I think that pretty much sums the purpose of the Society, but if you peruse the Purposes section, the first is "for enthusiasts of N gauge modelling to meet..." and the fifth is "stimulate the development of N gauge modelling techniques". Again, nowhere is anything said about 2mm or indeed any other scale or gauge.

On the other hand, I grant you this: the Competition rules section doesn't actually mention gauge or scale at all! 

Cheers, NeMo

I assume that most of the contributors to this 'n'/2mm 'discussion' are actually members of the NGS...
Here is an extract from the home page blurb of the society to which you belong. (the bold-ing of some text is mine):
"Welcome to the website of the N Gauge Society (often referred to as the NGS).  The Society is a non-profit making organisation, run by volunteers for the benefit of the railway modelling hobby in general and N Gauge modellers in particular."

I see that as quite enough justification for an article now and then on, say, 2mm modelling...

'That's all I have to say about that...'

I have been following this discussion from the beginning and am reminded of the Sunday morning 'discussion' programmes on the TV. Contributor 1 has his/her views on a subject, contributor 2 has his/her views on that subject. After half an hour or so of 'discussion', they still have their own views, so nothing has changed.  . Everybody has their own views, (and is entitled to have those views), on a particular subject - it would be a boring world if everybody agreed on everything!

Wot Zogbert said!

Incidentally, the 'N Gauge Now' magazine advertises itself as "The wonderful world of 2mm modelling - 100% N Gauge" ................ David. 

Personally I don't mind the odd peep above the parapet of the 1:148/9mm N gauge fortress (especially if it was a case of that or no content) - I might learn something new.

I might revise my opinion if it turns out 2mm dealers are systematically pushing N Gauge as a gateway drug to Finescale.

I'm starting out on a scratch building project and have been reading various 4mm & 7mm forums to get some ideas on techniques and methods of metal working. Does this mean that I can't then write about it in the Journal?

I'm beginning to wonder if some NGS members just want a Society of people who buy RTR models and run then on a layout with ready-to-plonk buildings without any kit or scratch building.

Personally, if an NGS member wanted to write an article on light weight baseboard construction using a OO Gauge layout I'd still be happy to read about it in the Journal.

Still, each to their own.....

Happy modelling,

Steven B.

You are correct, Dannyboy, it will just go 'round and 'round. I seriously doubt anyone's opinion will be changed.

Fortunately, those who don't mind a small bit of 'sacrilegious' content seem to be the majority. Those who object will continue complaining. That's life.

Mind, for the record, that I don't want the Journal to start being filled with 2mm (or other scales) content, but I do not feel that a small bit once in a while is indicative of that happening.

One thought I have had, is that perhaps the NGS, instead of offering kits, should really seriously explore producing and selling some of the types of items that one has to join the 2mm Assoc. to acquire. I think many N gauge modellers join that Assoc. only for that reason. I know I may have to, and I know at least 2 others who are members for the same reason.

Wonder if 2mmA's membership would drop significantly if that were to happen?

Jim F

Quote from: JimF on February 22, 2016, 12:26:02 PM

One thought I have had, is that perhaps the NGS, instead of offering kits, should really seriously explore producing and selling some of the types of items that one has to join the 2mm Assoc. to acquire.

I'd rather it be an "as well as offering kits", seeing as the kits are already there and hopefully it would just be a case of sourcing stock from the same suppliers as the 2mm association (unless they've got exclusivity deals, although I'd doubt that as there's not a big enough market to make that worthwhile).

Quote from: JimF on February 22, 2016, 12:26:02 PM
perhaps the NGS [...] should really seriously explore producing and selling some of the types of items that one has to join the 2mm Assoc. to acquire.

Go into competition with them ?  Diluting the demand ?  Making neither group profitable in that area ?

You really sure on that ?    If the market isn't large enough for the main mfrs to each produce a J72, what makes you think the market is large enough for both the 2mmA and NGF to compete ?

Why not? Isn't healthy competition (read that as 'cut the other's throat, maybe find a way to have a monopoly ) the foundation of our so-called global economy?

I don't model in 2mmfs, have no plans to. But, to build the pre-grouping wagons done in 3d I want, I need W irons for that, and have been told the only source is the 2mmA, so I have to join it to be able to buy them.

How many others have to do the same? Why can't the NGS provide for it's own members?

Perhaps the NGS would gain members, as I'm sure there are N modellers out there who are not members, but do belong to the 2mmA for access to their items.

My understanding is The 2mm Association was started by those who were not happy with using 9mm track, and wanting mush more prototypical rail spacing, track tolerances, etc.. Those that do will stay with, or join, the association.

I doubt seriously it will ever happen, so this is all probably academic.

Jim F

Quote from: JimF on February 22, 2016, 01:47:22 PM
Why not? Isn't healthy competition (read that as 'cut the other's throat, maybe find a way to have a monopoly ) the foundation of our so-called global economy?

I don't model in 2mmfs, have no plans to. But, to build the pre-grouping wagons done in 3d I want, I need W irons for that, and have been told the only source is the 2mmA, so I have to join it to be able to buy them.

How many others have to do the same? Why can't the NGS provide for it's own members?

Perhaps the NGS would gain members, as I'm sure there are N modellers out there who are not members, but do belong to the 2mmA for access to their items.

My understanding is The 2mm Association was started by those who were not happy with using 9mm track, and wanting mush more prototypical rail spacing, track tolerances, etc.. Those that do will stay with, or join, the association.

I doubt seriously it will ever happen, so this is all probably academic.

Jim F

Hi

If you want them that much then get someone like Allen at Worsley Works http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/ to etch them for you (he has done custom work for me and others in the past). Why should the 2mm SA and its members support your modelling if you won't support them by joining.

I am a member of both the NGS and 2mm SA and I joined the 2mm SA as I wanted to use some of their parts in my models. However since joining I have also started to build a small layout to the 2mm SA standards.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on February 22, 2016, 02:21:15 PM

Quote from: JimF on February 22, 2016, 01:47:22 PM
Why not? Isn't healthy competition (read that as 'cut the other's throat, maybe find a way to have a monopoly ) the foundation of our so-called global economy?

I don't model in 2mmfs, have no plans to. But, to build the pre-grouping wagons done in 3d I want, I need W irons for that, and have been told the only source is the 2mmA, so I have to join it to be able to buy them.

How many others have to do the same? Why can't the NGS provide for it's own members?

Perhaps the NGS would gain members, as I'm sure there are N modellers out there who are not members, but do belong to the 2mmA for access to their items.

My understanding is The 2mm Association was started by those who were not happy with using 9mm track, and wanting mush more prototypical rail spacing, track tolerances, etc.. Those that do will stay with, or join, the association.

I doubt seriously it will ever happen, so this is all probably academic.

Jim F

Hi

If you want them that much then get someone like Allen at Worsley Works http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/ to etch them for you (he has done custom work for me and others in the past). Why should the 2mm SA and its members support your modelling if you won't support them by joining.

I am a member of both the NGS and 2mm SA and I joined the 2mm SA as I wanted to use some of their parts in my models. However since joining I have also started to build a small layout to the 2mm SA standards.

Cheers

Paul

I think, to be fair, Jim was suggesting that he would join the 2mmfs society to access the parts he needs, so he would be supporting the society.

I have to say the main reason I joined the NGS was to get access to the kits. Unfortunately, almost all of the ones I'm interested have been long term out of stock......

Quote from: ScottyStitch on February 22, 2016, 02:49:08 PM
I think, to be fair, Jim was suggesting that he would join the 2mmfs society to access the parts he needs, so he would be supporting the society.

I have to say the main reason I joined the NGS was to get access to the kits. Unfortunately, almost all of the ones I'm interested have been long term out of stock......

Hi

I read it as he wanted the NGS to stock the 2mm SA bits he required.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on February 22, 2016, 03:09:24 PM

Quote from: ScottyStitch on February 22, 2016, 02:49:08 PM
I think, to be fair, Jim was suggesting that he would join the 2mmfs society to access the parts he needs, so he would be supporting the society.

I have to say the main reason I joined the NGS was to get access to the kits. Unfortunately, almost all of the ones I'm interested have been long term out of stock......

Hi

I read it as he wanted the NGS to stock the 2mm SA bits he required.

Cheers

Paul

Yes I agree I think he does, but this:

"I don't model in 2mmfs, have no plans to. But, to build the pre-grouping wagons done in 3d I want, I need W irons for that, and have been told the only source is the 2mmA, so I have to join it to be able to buy them."

suggests that to get the parts he will join the 2mm group. I may be wrong.

Scotty