Quote from: MikeDunn on November 29, 2015, 04:27:42 PM

Quote from: apollo45115 on November 29, 2015, 03:12:00 PM
I know a few will be saying it echoes of Hornby's "design clever" principal

Hasn't this now been abandoned ?  To quote Simon Kohler, "Take for example the period at Hornby when I had to endure the lowering of the detail level in models – the Design Clever period.  I knew the whole reasoning was fundamentally flawed when the Board decided to adopt such a backward step and I argued against such a policy".  Why follow a flawed and abandoned style ?

Maybe for 4mm models. CJM models use moulded in/on detail, it can look very effective. Take a look at the old farish 31 as I mentioned and tell me what you think. I did also mention that separate detail should be used where appropriate (the class 31 handrails) I feel you're being little unfair to me there.

QuoteI've noticed there's some difference in price between dapol and farish, particularly coaches.

And BMW sell at a different price to Ford ... sorry Carl, but I'm not seeing your point here ?  It's not the same as comparing a price from Shop A with those of Shop B for Item X ...

The point I'm making these are two very similar spec products selling at different prices, RRP £24.90 for dapol maunsell coach, a farish Mk1 SO RRP £28.90. I always thought BMW were a different price because they're higher spec, better quality than a ford? But I don't know about much about cars.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

Carl

Quote from: apollo45115 on November 29, 2015, 04:59:22 PM
I feel you're being little unfair to me there.

?  Don't think so ... you're the one who brought up this best-forgotten experiment of Hornby's, saying this may be the only option.  Well, if it's the only option - why did they abandon it ?  Simple : the buying public hated the results ...  And I don't think you can compare what CJM may do with how the big mfrs approach these.  BTW - did you read the article I linked to ?  It gives more info on this failed strategy.

QuoteThe point I'm making these are two very similar spec products selling at different prices, RRP £24.90 for dapol maunsell coach, a farish Mk1 SO RRP £28.90.

OK, I see where you're going now ... but these are similar prices - 10-15% difference, or thereabouts - call it a pint of beer different.  And that can get reduced even further when you look at the actual selling prices (RRP is a bad way of looking at them, as pretty much only the small model shops or the non-model retailers use them - certainly, the larger ones don't).  Oh, & a chunk of the price difference between BMW & Ford is in the marque - certainly not all, but enough (too much ?).

As to why - this has been rehashed on the Forum numerous times, a search will show you all the previous versions of this debate; I don't see any advantage in having it all over again, when the fundamental facts are unchanged.  Maybe a better discussion point could be the UK's "big 2" vs someone like Rapido ?  Can't include DJM, as they're still to produce in N, and Hornby are far too limited to be anything more than a blip at present.

Personally - I prefer the GraFar coach stock over the Dapol (and yes, I have similar numbers of both) - they just look & "feel" better to me.  My Dapols are pretty much covering stock GraFar doesn't (or currently don't have in the range, while Dapol does), otherwise I probably wouldn't have them.  And this is where (to me) some of your argument breaks down - you're not comparing the same item, just a generic class (you say a Maunsell vs a Mk1 SO); agreed, hard to do when they aren't both making the same item.

YMMV ...

Mike

Quote from: apollo45115 on November 29, 2015, 03:12:00 PM
Maybe the solution is fewer separate parts (where appropriate) on bodies and dispensing with working features such as lights. Moulded on detail, like handrails, can look good and in some cases more to scale in N. I always thought the fan/roof grille detail on the old farish 31 was pretty good but it could have done with separate cab handrails.

The critical thing is that as far as possible machines do the assembly, decoration and packaging. Yes removing detail helps - but mostly in reducing assembly cost. The real answer that is happening in large volume products is that the robots do the lot. It's a different kind of design clever, and things like 3D print are part of it.

For UK outline models I think we just have to get used to the prices, or picking models that are UK made but for now don't have some of the fancy stuff so keep the costs down on assembly and shipping (Peco wagons, Union Mills locos etc). Some things will eventually get cheaper - built in DCC for example is way cheaper than sockets and plug in decoders.

Kits are going to diverge in price from RTR more and more but it'll never be cheaper to hire a minion to build your kits than to buy RTR !

Alan

Quote from: EtchedPixels on November 29, 2015, 08:28:33 PM
but it'll never be cheaper to hire a minion to build your kits than to buy RTR !

Given the usual level of success from the Minions - who would dare !!!