Quote from: ten0G on August 23, 2015, 01:45:00 AM

Apparently, after 1959 four and six wheeled goods vehicles were banned from passenger trains: 

This is not quite true.  In George Heiron's book "Trains to the West" (page 49) there is a photograph of D1012 Western Firebrand storming through Badminton with a Pembroke Dock to Paddington express. The first vehicle on the train is a 6 wheeled van, the second a 4 wheeled 'con-flat'.
Dates of published pictures can be very inaccurate but is given as 'August 1963'. What is beyond question is that D1012 entered service in November 1962 and so the picture could not be earlier than that.
As to milk traffic being banned from passenger trains, in theory so long as the braking systems are compatible there is no reason why a tanker or two shouldn't be added to a DMU as a tail load but am unsure as to whether it actually happened.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 09:21:53 AM
As to milk traffic being banned from passenger trains, in theory so long as the braking systems are compatible there is no reason why a tanker or two shouldn't be added to a DMU as a tail load but am unsure as to whether it actually happened.

A loaded milk tank weighs 28 tons. I'm not sure many DMUs were able to pull that sort tail load, at least, not at any great speed. Mostly you saw them hauling things in the 10-12 ton range, such as vans.

The sheer weight of milk tankers together with the fact they're unrefrigerated is why you needed a big engine pulling milk trains. A Type-2 could handle a couple of them down a branch line, but you needed something like a 'Western' to get a dozen of them up to London at express passenger train speeds.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on August 23, 2015, 09:32:01 AM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 09:21:53 AM
As to milk traffic being banned from passenger trains, in theory so long as the braking systems are compatible there is no reason why a tanker or two shouldn't be added to a DMU as a tail load but am unsure as to whether it actually happened.

A loaded milk tank weighs 28 tons. I'm not sure many DMUs were able to pull that sort tail load, at least, not at any great speed. Mostly you saw them hauling things in the 10-12 ton range, such as vans.

The sheer weight of milk tankers together with the fact they're unrefrigerated is why you needed a big engine pulling milk trains. A Type-2 could handle a couple of them down a branch line, but you needed something like a 'Western' to get a dozen of them up to London at express passenger train speeds.

Cheers, NeMo

All quite true, NeMo but firstly I wasn't thinking of using a DMU to haul the milk train to London, but to the branch line junction and secondly a 3 car DMU weighs in at (around, depending on class) 90 - 95 tons and it was far from unknown to assist a failed DMU with another DMU when I was a Guard.
In theory, therefore, a 28 ton milk tanker (or 56 for two) would not be beyond the capability of a DMU.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 09:45:06 AM
In theory, therefore, a 28 ton milk tanker (or 56 for two) would not be beyond the capability of a DMU.

Do you think? I'm wondering if a lightweight DMU on a WR branchline would have the necessary tractive effort to get a milk tank moving quickly enough not to lose time. That said, the idea of a Class 121 shunting a milk tank around an Ashburton-type station is extremely appealing!

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on August 23, 2015, 11:01:47 AM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 09:45:06 AM
In theory, therefore, a 28 ton milk tanker (or 56 for two) would not be beyond the capability of a DMU.

Do you think? I'm wondering if a lightweight DMU on a WR branchline would have the necessary tractive effort to get a milk tank moving quickly enough not to lose time. That said, the idea of a Class 121 shunting a milk tank around an Ashburton-type station is extremely appealing!

Cheers, NeMo

In an effort to solve this issue I am going to quote from the BRWR General Appendix to the Working Timetables and Rules and Regulations, as issued by the WR Regional Operations Manager based in Swindon in 1986.
By this time milk traffic was a thing of the past, of course, but I think we can make assumptions from what is below.

DMU Formation and Tail traffic
5.1 Unless specifically authorised the number of trailer vehicles in a formation must not exceed that shown below for the appropriate number of power cars:-
Where gradients do not exceed 1 in 50 rising
1 power car 1 trailer
2 power cars 2 trailers
3 power cars 3 trailers
4 power cars 4 trailers
5 power cars 5 trailers
6 power cars 6 trailers

Where gradients do exceed 1 in 50 rising
1 power car nil trailer
2 power cars 1 trailer
3 power cars 2 trailers
4 power cars 2 trailers
5 power cars 3 trailers
6 power cars 3 trailers

5.2  The permitted number of trailer/tail load vehicles shown above is reduced by ONE for each engine isolated in the formation. If an engine fails in service, and the permitted tail load is exceeded, then the Driver may proceed (having regard to weather and gradient conditions) to the first practical point where the fault can be rectified or assistance obtained.
Should such a failure occur on a gradient of 1 in 50 (Rising) or greater then he MUST obtain assistance and no attempt should be made to restart the train.

5.3   Exceptionally, between Paddington and Banbury (via Didcot) two power cars are permitted to haul two trailer vehicles provided that not more than one engine is isolated.   

p/s Interestingly no reference to tare loads of trailer vehicles is made beyond that of "Section 2" as below:

2.2 Four or Six wheeled vehicles must be considered to be 20 tons and Eight wheeled vehicles as 30 tons unless otherwise indicated.

Your 'bubble car' should have no problems shunting so long as the gradient does not exceed 1 in 50 rising (and its engine is not isolated).
You can quote the Regional Operations Manager in Swindon on that.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 12:06:39 PM
2.2 Four or Six wheeled vehicles must be considered to be 20 tons and Eight wheeled vehicles as 30 tons unless otherwise indicated.

But a loaded milk tank has six wheels and weighs 28 tons... is that a problem here? Doesn't this rule mean the six wheel wagon has to weigh 20 tons or less???

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 12:06:39 PMYour 'bubble car' should have no problems shunting so long as the gradient does not exceed 1 in 50 rising (and its engine is not isolated).
You can quote the Regional Operations Manager in Swindon on that.

I shall certainly do that! I suspect my Class 122 track learning vehicle might now be hauling the odd departmental van or Stove-R!

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on August 23, 2015, 05:38:02 PM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 12:06:39 PM
2.2 Four or Six wheeled vehicles must be considered to be 20 tons and Eight wheeled vehicles as 30 tons unless otherwise indicated.

But a loaded milk tank has six wheels and weighs 28 tons... is that a problem here? Doesn't this rule mean the six wheel wagon has to weigh 20 tons or less???

No, read it again . . . "unless otherwise indicated". So in other words 20 tons is a general assumption


Paul

Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
I'm surprised Karhedron hasn't happened across this thread, I feel sure he would be able to help with the liveries.

I have been away on holiday (with no net access) and missed all the excitement. 

NeMo and others have summarized the livery situation very well so there is not much for me to add really.

Quote from: Karhedron on August 24, 2015, 10:36:21 AM

Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
I'm surprised Karhedron hasn't happened across this thread, I feel sure he would be able to help with the liveries.

I have been away on holiday (with no net access) and missed all the excitement. 

NeMo and others have summarized the livery situation very well so there is not much for me to add really.

Welcome back, matey! 

Quote from: Karhedron on August 24, 2015, 10:36:21 AM

I have been away on holiday (with no net access) and missed all the excitement. 

Hope all went well with your time off. That's one trouble with being retired - no holidays!

But since you seem to  have a wealth of knowledge perhaps you can supply a picture of a DMU with a milk tanker tail load. I'm sure it must have happened but finding a photo to prove it is like looking for 6 winning lottery numbers!
Thanks,
Greg.

Quote from: ten0G on August 23, 2015, 01:45:00 AM
Apparently, after 1959 four and six wheeled goods vehicles were banned from passenger trains: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#List_of_railway_connected_dairies.2C_1956

See para.2 under "Operations."

Quote from: Karhedron on August 21, 2015, 07:01:02 PM
Ah but milk tankers were not goods vehicles. They were NPCCS and so the restriction on freight vehicles in passenger trains did not apply.

Thanks.  So how reliable is the rest of the entry likely to be?   

To be fair, most of it seems accurate although there are one or two blips. As far as I am aware, there was never a milk handling facility at Kensington. Although a great many milk trains ran to/from here, as far as I know, it was only a marshaling point. Full milk tanks would be collected here and then tripped to the various bottling plants around the capital.

A train from the west country might contain tankers for both Express Dairies and Unigate. The train would be brought here and the Express Dairies tankers consolidated with others from different trains and taken to Morden (for example) while the Unigate ones might be tripped to Wood Lane or Ilford. This was a complex balancing act to match supply with demand.

Quote from: ten0G on August 23, 2015, 01:45:00 AM
I hope to base my choice(s) on the list of dairies shown, probably in the West Wales area eg Fishguard, Pont Llanio, Carmarthen, or Whitland. 

The situation with dairy owners is complicated by the fact that the table seems to list the owner/builder of the creameries but does not take into account the degree of consolidation that happened in the industry over time. Lostwithiel for example was actually built and operated by Nestle prior to WW2. It then passed into the hands of DMP (owned by Cow and Gate) and thus finally passed into the hands of Unigate after the merger of UD and C&G in 1959.

And that is just one creamery! 

Your choice of creamery and also livery might depend to some extent on your means. Are you planning to model the creamery itself or are you just looking to represent the traffic flow from it further down the line?

If you are looking to model the 1950s shortly prior to the formation of Unigate then mostly silver with perhaps 1 or 2 dirty pre-war liveries mixed in is probably the most appropriate. I would be strongly tempted to get the silver tanks that came in the set with the blue class 22 if you can (maybe find someone to split a set with). Although branded as Unigate this is on a small black panel which could easily be overpainted and then replaced with transfers for MMB, United Dairies etc. Not quite an out of the box solution but it does make use of the nicely weathered tankers and is probably a good match for the scenario you are looking to model.

Quote from: ten0G on August 23, 2015, 01:45:00 AMAlso, does anybody know if there was a livery (especially silver versions) for Cow & Gate or Dried Milk Products please as I haven't come across any yet. 

Not that I have seen. I would hazard a guess that they would have been silver with appropriate lettering on the black nameplate. This was the standard livery post-nationalisation so I suspect that would have worn it. The trouble is that milk trains were not photographed that often, particularly in the 1950s and very few photographers would have gone to the trouble of identifying which dirty silver tankers belonged to which dairy. The photos of the striking pre-war liveries were often taken by the dairies themselves for promotional uses.

Finding (or more importantly identifying) a definitive photo of a C&G or DMP tanker from the 1950s is not going to be easy. Most likely we have already seen them in photos here and there but they are indistinguishable from the other dirty silver tankers in the rake.

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 24, 2015, 10:56:03 AM
But since you seem to  have a wealth of knowledge perhaps you can supply a picture of a DMU with a milk tanker tail load. I'm sure it must have happened but finding a photo to prove it is like looking for 6 winning lottery numbers!

It did indeed happen. One place I know of off the top of my head was Saltash where 1 or 2 tankers would often be tripped to Plymouth behind a class 121 or 122. Previously they had been tripped behind the auto-train with a 6400 in charge.

I have photos in print but none online that I have been able to find. Michael Mensing has published at least 1 shot of a pair of 122s hauling 2 milk tankers over the Royal Albert bridge.

Quote from: Karhedron on August 24, 2015, 11:17:09 AM

Quote from: ten0G on August 23, 2015, 01:45:00 AM
I hope to base my choice(s) on the list of dairies shown, probably in the West Wales area eg Fishguard, Pont Llanio, Carmarthen, or Whitland. 

Your choice of creamery and also livery might depend to some extent on your means. Are you planning to model the creamery itself or are you just looking to represent the traffic flow from it further down the line?

I'm still undecided on this, perhaps both. 

Is there any information or evidence of actual regular tanker traffic on lines north of Whitland & Carmarthen, please? 

Were there, for example, any creameries in the Cardigan area that were served by rail? 

If you can point me in the right direction please, I'll have a look.

There were 2 creameries north of Carmarthen on the line to Aberystwyth, both initially owned by the MMB although they may later have changed. The first was at Pont Llanio, I have attached a couple of pics below.





The other was the MMB Creamery at Felinfach (Green Grove) on the Aberaeron branch. This remained up until 1973 (nearly 10 years after the end of passenger trains between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth (indeed it was the reason the line was retained). There is a great sequence of shots on this site showing a Pannier picking up the tankers and tripping them to Lampeter for the run south to Carmarthen where it was collected for the run into London.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/14264743041/in/faves-39347043@N07/

In the Carmarthen area itself, there were a couple of largish creameries adjacent to the mainline.

This is the Cow & Gate ( later Unigate) plant at Johnstown near Carmarthen.



There was a small rail-served CWS Creamery at Fairfach (now a garage)



There was also a CWS/MMB plant at Llangadog.

In short, milk was big business in that part of South Wales with the MMB being a particularly big player but others certainly being involved.

Slightly OT but this site has some nice picture showing Torrington creamery in all its art deco glory. Alas it is due to be demolished and turned int flats.

http://www.abandoned-britain.com/PP/torrington/1.htm