Quote from: NeMo on August 13, 2015, 06:05:07 PM
Consequently a lot of books about wagons or freight rolling stock seem to wiggle out of including milk tanks citing one or other of these reasons! 

I recall reading about some around 1980 in "A History of GWR Goods Wagons" I think.  I don't recall any mention of the barrels being owned by the dairies though, but it's a long time ago now! 

Quote from: ten0G on August 13, 2015, 05:44:38 PM

Hatton's have the pre-war one listed as era 5, and the swooshing "E" one as era 3. 

But there's also this one in the 4mm range for era 5 as well:

But there are just so many 'loopholes', exceptions, variations and inconsistencies in the so called 'era' system that it is totally meaningless for the British outline.
Why not just give plain, straightforward 'dates of operation'? Much more simple all round  .

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 14, 2015, 04:45:57 PM
But there are just so many 'loopholes', exceptions, variations and inconsistencies in the so called 'era' system that it is totally meaningless for the British outline.
Why not just give plain, straightforward 'dates of operation'? Much more simple all round  .

I'm sure the "era system" has been discussed before. But for what it's worth, the problem here isn't the era, it's the fact either [a] Dapol make up liveries, in which case no era applies; or (b) erroneous eras are applied by Dapol and/or retailers.

So far as milk tankers go, the (rather generic) six-wheel tanker modelled operated from the mid 30s through to the mid 70s. For modellers it's entirely reasonable to expect a given livery to fit into either the Big Four era (3), the early BR era (4), the transition BR era (5), or the pre-TOPS BR blue era (6). It would be nice it Dapol stated clearly which era their tanker belongs to, rather as Bachmann do, with a label on the packaging. But they don't, and as a result there's all sorts of confusion.

For sure D1042, there's overlap between the eras, so your idea of stating dates of operation would be the ideal. But in practical terms, the era system -- if used correctly -- would be simple and effective.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2015, 05:52:04 PM
It would be nice it Dapol stated clearly which era their tanker belongs to, rather as Bachmann do, with a label on the packaging. But they don't, and as a result there's all sorts of confusion.

The "era" system is a Bachmann invention is it not?

If so then look at it from Dapol's point of view: why would you acknowledge something your main competitor invented as if it is gospel?


Paul

I think Bachmann borrowed and altered the NEM Epoch system, rather than invented one of thier own

Quote from: Sprintex on August 14, 2015, 08:49:24 PM
The "era" system is a Bachmann invention is it not?

If so then look at it from Dapol's point of view: why would you acknowledge something your main competitor invented as if it is gospel?

It's not as if they actually have to use Bachmann's eras. They could invent and entirely compatible one of their own...

<1> Pre-grouping
<2> LMS, LNER, GWR and SR
<3> Steam-era/post-war British Railways
<4> Steam and diesel British Railways
<5> BR blue
<6> 1980s BR (InterCity, Network Southeast, Railfreight, etc.)
<7> Privatisation

See what I did there? Essentially the same thing, but not identical. Dapol, feel free to copy!

Cheers, NeMo

Why should they though when so many wagons and coaches don't really fit into a convenient "era", but span two or more modelling periods? Better to let the buyer do his/her own research and decide what suits their layout


Paul

Quote from: Sprintex on August 14, 2015, 09:27:45 PM
Why should they though when so many wagons and coaches don't really fit into a convenient "era", but span two or more modelling periods? Better to let the buyer do his/her own research and decide what suits their layout

Yes, but for casual hobbyists, or friends/family buying gifts, knowing if wagon X is suitable for your privatisation-era layout is really all the level they really need.

Not many GWR coaches were operating post-1948, and nor were there many maroon coaches running in the 1970s BR blue era. You and I could find exceptions I'm sure, but in reality this "era" approach works really well.

At school your history teachers divided time up into the Roman era, the Anglo-Saxons, Tudors, and so on. Serious historians obviously don't work that way of course, but for the layperson, it's good enough.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2015, 05:52:04 PM
[a] Dapol make up liveries

I'm with NeMo on this. It's not at all helpful. It would be OK if they mentioned it was fake rather that 'force' people like us to check and discuss it ad infinitum! To my mind, made up liveries come from toy train thinking. They wouldn't get away with it on locos and passenger stock. 

Cheers

Clive

Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2015, 05:52:04 PM
But in practical terms, the era system -- if used correctly -- would be simple and effective.

Cheers, NeMo

Sorry, but I beg to differ on that for the reasons I gave earlier. Much easier all round, suits both enthusiast and non enthusiast just to say "This livery applies on WR layouts between 1969 and 1977" (or whatever).
However, as you say NeMo, the era system is discussed elsewhere.

Quote from: NeMo on August 12, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
if you got Unigate ones more cheaply than the Express ones, judicious weathering would obscure the Unigate nameplate rather easily, I'd have thought!

Thanks, but I think it's unlikely I'd find any, and although I may be able to obscure the nameplate, I'd still need to apply another dairy's name in a weathered state somewhere. 

Quote from: NeMo on August 12, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
Tankers were repainted (stripped back to bare metal?) into the silver livery during the war as/when required, and by the 1950s very few retained their pretty pre-war liveries.

Has anybody any idea where they would be repainted and by whom, please, eg railway workshops, carriage & wagon works, dairy specialists, etc?

Quote from: NeMo on August 12, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
So: I'd be tempted to go with the silver Express Dairies tankers. It wouldn't be difficult to justify this, and with a bit of weathering, they'd look spot on, perhaps with a few pre-war liveried Express Dairies tankers thrown in, more heavily weathered, so suggest an ongoing process of repainting.

Osborn's used to do a pre-war twin pack with barrel nos 35 & 49 which would be useful for that, but I can't see the numbers on any photos so far.  Also, I can't see any numbers on the photos of the silver ones. 

Does anyone know if there is any no. printed on either of the ordinary Dapol versions, please? 

Quote from: NeMo on August 13, 2015, 03:21:08 PM

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 13, 2015, 03:02:07 PM
There are pictures of 6 wheel tankers in blue livery on Paul Bartlett's site (see my post No.2 in this thread).

Yes, for sure there are tankers in blue. But none seem to be in the later Express Dairies sky blue with swooshing E logo. The blue tanks I can see on PB's website are darker blue, presumably restored to pre-War livery because they're on preserved railway lines. The Milk Marketing Board blue with their crest is unfamiliar to me, but in any case, doesn't match the Dapol model.

The obviously missing (and very common) livery from the Dapol line-up is the white/orange 'St Ivel' brand livery you mentioned earlier on. Having some of these jumbled in with the plain silver tanks would seem to be a useful step forward for West Country, late 60s/early 70s modellers. Lots of my books about diesels in the West Country seem to feature these tanks.

Cheers, NeMo

In addition to my last post, having looked at many photos in Paul Bartlett's collection, I've reached the following conclusions:

• The chassis resembles a Swindon one with flat truss bars below the axle boxes,
• Most Swindon tankers with the barrel/ladder in the style of the Dapol model have no catwalks fitted, and so far I haven't seen any photos of WR milk trains that include them,
• Most of the photos are at least 15 years later than the pre-1959 period I wish to model so the visible amount of livery may be a lot more than pictured in the collection. 
  

Currently, only wagons with catwalks seem to be available.  If I choose to buy wagons to weather at a later date, I may wish to remove and discard these fitments prior to the weathering process. 

Can anyone who has these wagons please give an opinion as to how easy such removal would be, and if, in their view, it would produce an acceptable result. 

Quote from: ten0G on August 21, 2015, 06:04:28 AM
Currently, only wagons with catwalks seem to be available.   Can anyone who has these wagons please give an opinion as to how easy such removal would be . . 

Removing the catwalk shouldn't be difficult. It is a separate moulding from the ladder so you may be able to simply unclip it or cut it off. I haven't compared, but I assume the ladder / filler cap moulding is common to all models. However, there are two little lugs on the tank itself onto which the catwalk locates which would need to be removed. The two clips which hold the body onto the chassis are behind the coupling assembly, hidden by the outer axles. The pic is of a wagon I've repainted and shows the lugs (which I should have removed). Originally an IMS (red) version, I swapped the whole ladder / catwalk assembly with a silver Unigate one, which may be wrong, but rule one was applied.

[smg id=28347 type=preview align=center caption="6 wheel tank lugs"]

Quote from: ten0G on August 20, 2015, 10:35:34 PM

Apparently, after 1959 four and six wheeled goods vehicles were banned from passenger trains: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#List_of_railway_connected_dairies.2C_1956

See para.2 under "Operations."

Quote from: Karhedron on August 21, 2015, 07:01:02 PM
Ah but milk tankers were not goods vehicles. They were NPCCS and so the restriction on freight vehicles in passenger trains did not apply.

Thanks.  So how reliable is the rest of the entry likely to be?   

I hope to base my choice(s) on the list of dairies shown, probably in the West Wales area eg Fishguard, Pont Llanio, Carmarthen, or Whitland. 

Also, does anybody know if there was a livery (especially silver versions) for Cow & Gate or Dried Milk Products please as I haven't come across any yet. 

Quote from: CliveH on August 21, 2015, 08:48:29 AM
I swapped the whole ladder / catwalk assembly with a silver Unigate one, which may be wrong

Looking at Hatton's pics I can't see much difference between the two ladders/caps, unless you have a better photo of the IMS cap for comparison. 

As I haven't seen any tankers that close up I wouldn't notice any differences anyway.  My aim is to just have a rake/rakes of tankers that have a 1950's Western Region appearance, especially when viewed from the side rather than above.  It looks fine to me. 

There were some Swindon-built (or modified) ones in PB's collection with catwalks, I just haven't found any pictures of them in milk trains yet.