Quote from: NeMo on April 26, 2015, 09:44:59 AM
By the mid 1950s virtually all milk tankers were silver. The pretty and colourful ones you see on Dapol's models are mostly pre-war. During the war they were mostly painted silver as a cost saving measure and as part of a unified milk production effort that eventually because the Milk Marketing Board.


NB-028   Express (dark blue)   30s/40s/50s
NB-031   United Dairies (white)   30s/40s/50s
NB-031   IMS (red)   30s/40s
NB-032   Co-Op Wholesale (green)   30s/40s
NB-044   Co-Op Milk (white)   Unknown, 60s/70s typeface, but possibly fictional
NB-045   Milk Marketing Board   60s
NB-050   Unigate Creameries (silver)   60s/70s
NB-054   IMS (blue)   30s/40s
NB-056   Co-Op Wholesale (red)   30s/40s
NB-115A   Co-Op Milk (white)   Unknown, 60s/70s typeface, but possibly fictional
NB-115B   Milk Marketing Board   60s
NB-115C   Express (light blue)   Uses 60s/70s logo, but possibly fictional
NB-115D   IMS (blue)   30s
2F-031-001   United Dairies (white)   30s/40s/50s
2F-031-002   Express (dark blue)   30s/40s/50s
2F-031-003   IMS (red)   30s/40s
2F-031-004   Unigate Creameries (silver)   60s/70s
2F-031-005   Co-Op Milk (white)   Unknown, 60s/70s typeface, but possibly fictional

NeMo,

Since your very useful summary, some more liveries have been used. 

At present, I think I have a choice of:

2F-031-007  MILK MARKETING BOARD (blue)
2F-031-008  EXPRESS DAIRY (silver).

Have you any advice regards using either of these on a pre-Unigate layout in West Wales in the late 1950s please.  I assume that these are without running numbers, and would need weathering

The only other option may be the weathered United Dairies (white), which come in a six-pack with a diesel that I wouldn't require, and I'd have difficulty selling that on due to my location. 

All advice and comments welcome, 

Quote from: ten0G on August 12, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
2F-031-007  MILK MARKETING BOARD (blue)

The typeface, logo and colours are those used by the MMB during the 60s and 70s, but I've not seen any photos of rail tankers with this particular livery, just road vehicles. On the other hand, the MMB did actually use some refurbished 6-wheel tankers different to the ones modelled by Dapol. However, the livery was different to the one on the new Dapol MMB tanker. Without evidence to the contrary, I'm tempted to assume that this livery is another one Dapol made up for their tanker model, perhaps loosely based on tankers like this one.

Quote from: ten0G on August 12, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
2F-031-008  EXPRESS DAIRY (silver).

Express Dairies did retain rail transport into the 70s, and did indeed use tanks broadly similar to the Dapol model. See for example, here.

Quote from: ten0G on August 12, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
Have you any advice regards using either of these on a pre-Unigate layout in West Wales in the late 1950s please.  I assume that these are without running numbers, and would need weathering

Tankers were repainted (stripped back to bare metal?) into the silver livery during the war as/when required, and by the 1950s very few retained their pretty pre-war liveries. Shiny metal reflects heat better, keeping the milk fresher. So silver tanks would be ideal for your time/place. Express Dairies received milk from all over the place, including the West Country and the north of England. Unigate (formed from Cow & Gate and United Dairies) was primarily the West Country (UD) and the south of England (C&G) through a merger in 1959.

So: I'd be tempted to go with the silver Express Dairies tankers. It wouldn't be difficult to justify this, and with a bit of weathering, they'd look spot on, perhaps with a few pre-war liveried Express Dairies tankers thrown in, more heavily weathered, so suggest an ongoing process of repainting. Though to be honest, even if you got Unigate ones more cheaply than the Express ones, judicious weathering would obscure the Unigate nameplate rather easily, I'd have thought!

Seem reasonable?

Cheers, NeMo

In his excellent reference work "BR General parcels rolling stock" (D Bradford Barton, 1978) David Larkin gives various liveries for milk tankers including one for the "Express Dairy" which also carried the slogan "Milk for London". Although the picture, taken at Seaton Junction in 1970, is black and white Mr Larkin describes the livery as "blue with black solebar and white lettering" (page 58).
He also includes pictures of other liveries from the early 1970s including an orange and white livery for St Ivel, (page 52) and two pre nationalisation designs, a heavily weather beaten ex LMS design built in 1946 and coloured light blue with white MMB lettering and black solebar (page 51) and an ex GWR design (date of building not given except as 'during World War Two') in Independent Milk Suppliers livery. Both were photographed in 1970.
A very interesting design is that on page 50 of a 6 wheeled tanker with twin tanks. It is ex GWR numbered W2557 built to diagram 0.41 in 1935 and the object was that on lines which generated light milk loads two different types, or grades, of milk could be carried in one vehicle. Carrying an owners plate saying 'Express Dairy' the livery (in 1970) was described as silver, black and white.
Altogether the book contains 18 varieties or designs of milk tanker and all were operational in (or around) 1970. I can not recommend the work too highly as a research document.
Regards,
Greg.


PS For anyone interested in the subject try  http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmilktanks

Quote from: NeMo on August 12, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
So: I'd be tempted to go with the silver Express Dairies tankers. It wouldn't be difficult to justify this, and with a bit of weathering, they'd look spot on, perhaps with a few pre-war liveried Express Dairies tankers thrown in, more heavily weathered, so suggest an ongoing process of repainting.

Cheers, NeMo

When you say pre-war liveried, do you mean the blue ones with "Milk for London," because there's also an 'Orribly Oversize version in blue not too dissimilar to the silver one.  If not fictitious, where does that fit in please? 

Regards,

Tennoji

If you mean this one:

http://www.ehattons.com/59204/Dapol_2F_031_002_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairies_/StockDetail.aspx

Yes, that's a prewar livery.

But there's also this one:

http://www.ehattons.com/47700/Dapol_NB115C_6_wheel_milk_tanker_49_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx

So far as I've been able to establish, the colour, logo and font are from the 60s onwards, but were used on road vehicles. I've not seen any photos of rail tankers with this colour scheme. I'd love to be proved wrong though!

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on August 13, 2015, 01:47:53 PM
If you mean this one:

http://www.ehattons.com/59204/Dapol_2F_031_002_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairies_/StockDetail.aspx

Yes, that's a prewar livery.

But there's also this one:

http://www.ehattons.com/47700/Dapol_NB115C_6_wheel_milk_tanker_49_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx

So far as I've been able to establish, the colour, logo and font are from the 60s onwards, but were used on road vehicles. I've not seen any photos of rail tankers with this colour scheme. I'd love to be proved wrong though!

Cheers, NeMo

There are pictures of 6 wheel tankers in blue livery on Paul Bartlett's site (see my post No.2 in this thread).

Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 13, 2015, 03:02:07 PM
There are pictures of 6 wheel tankers in blue livery on Paul Bartlett's site (see my post No.2 in this thread).

Yes, for sure there are tankers in blue. But none seem to be in the later Express Dairies sky blue with swooshing E logo. The blue tanks I can see on PB's website are darker blue, presumably restored to pre-War livery because they're on preserved railway lines. The Milk Marketing Board blue with their crest is unfamiliar to me, but in any case, doesn't match the Dapol model.

The obviously missing (and very common) livery from the Dapol line-up is the white/orange 'St Ivel' brand livery you mentioned earlier on. Having some of these jumbled in with the plain silver tanks would seem to be a useful step forward for West Country, late 60s/early 70s modellers. Lots of my books about diesels in the West Country seem to feature these tanks.

Cheers, NeMo

I'm surprised Karhedron hasn't happened across this thread, I feel sure he would be able to help with the liveries. I'm sure he had an article published in one of the modelling magazines regarding milk by rail and the Dapol models, might even have been the NGS journal.

I may be mistaken, however.....

Either way, interesting thread, especially if there is evidence the white an orange livery survived into the 70s...

Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
I'm sure he had an article published in one of the modelling magazines regarding milk by rail and the Dapol models, might even have been the NGS journal.

He's not the only one! The table cited earlier on is a rewrite of the one I did for the NGS Journal.

Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
Either way, interesting thread, especially if there is evidence the white an orange livery survived into the 70s...

At least 5 photos in 'Diesels on Cornwall's Main Line' featuring 'Westerns' and a Brush type-4 in BR blue hauling such tanks. Unfortunately the photos aren't dated, but D1012 is in one photo (repainted into blue 3/71) which means the photo in question is at least after that point in time. One of my books mentions when the 'St Ivel' branded tanks were introduced, and writer commenting it brought at attractive splash of colour to the scene, but for the life of me I can't find it!

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on August 13, 2015, 05:10:20 PM

Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
I'm sure he had an article published in one of the modelling magazines regarding milk by rail and the Dapol models, might even have been the NGS journal.

He's not the only one! The table cited earlier on is a rewrite of the one I did for the NGS Journal.

Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
Either way, interesting thread, especially if there is evidence the white an orange livery survived into the 70s...

At least 5 photos in 'Diesels on Cornwall's Main Line' featuring 'Westerns' and a Brush type-4 in BR blue hauling such tanks. Unfortunately the photos aren't dated, but D1012 is in one photo (repainted into blue 3/71) which means the photo in question is at least after that point in time. One of my books mentions when the 'St Ivel' branded tanks were introduced, and writer commenting it brought at attractive splash of colour to the scene, but for the life of me I can't find it!

Cheers, NeMo

My apologies NeMo, that's maybe the article I'm thinking of!

Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 05:29:54 PM
My apologies NeMo, that's maybe the article I'm thinking of!

No apology needed. Weirdly enough after my discussion of the Dapol tanks (2/14) there was an *even longer* article about milk trains in a later issue (5/14) by Noel Leaver, John Palmer, David Thomkiss and Les Whaley.

There may well have been articles before either of these articles, but I didn't join the NGS until 2012 so don't know about them.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: NeMo on August 13, 2015, 01:47:53 PM
If you mean this one:

http://www.ehattons.com/59204/Dapol_2F_031_002_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairies_/StockDetail.aspx

Yes, that's a prewar livery.

But there's also this one:

http://www.ehattons.com/47700/Dapol_NB115C_6_wheel_milk_tanker_49_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx

So far as I've been able to establish, the colour, logo and font are from the 60s onwards, but were used on road vehicles. I've not seen any photos of rail tankers with this colour scheme. I'd love to be proved wrong though!

Cheers, NeMo

Hatton's have the pre-war one listed as era 5, and the swooshing "E" one as era 3. 

But there's also this one in the 4mm range for era 5 as well:

http://www.ehattons.com/60589/Dapol_4F_031_009_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx

Quote from: ten0G on August 13, 2015, 05:44:38 PM
Hatton's have the pre-war one listed as era 5, and the swooshing "E" one as era 3. 

Yes, that was the reason for my NGS article. The original table in the NGS journal lists the "stated era" (taken from the Hatton's website) and the actual era so far as I could establish it from photos of these tankers in use.

Researching this topic revealed something quite frustrating. The tanks were privately owned, but the chassis were not, they were owned by the railway company/BR. They were also considered to be passenger, not freight, stock so far as operations went. Consequently a lot of books about wagons or freight rolling stock seem to wiggle out of including milk tanks citing one or other of these reasons! 

Cheers, NeMo

Here's a selection of some of the other milk tanker threads on here:

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=25170.0

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=11515.msg118229#msg118229

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=15068.msg149514#msg149514

Quote from: Caz on August 13, 2015, 07:03:43 PM
Here's a selection of some of the other milk tanker threads on here:

That'll keep me busy for a while