A completely fair appraisal of my recent N purchases would be as follows:

2 x Dapol 121 - One noisy, the other great
Dapol 26 - Noisy but running pretty well. hot at first after a run but cooling now and possibly getting a little quieter
Farish 03 - Excellent quiet runner.
Walthers RS2 - Excellent quiet runner
Kato RS2 - Excellent quiet runner
Atlas H15 - Excellent quiet runner - slightly noisier at high speed but still smooth.
Farish A1 - Third one now runs perfectly after a lot of work. Two returned for poor running.
Kato GG1 - Excellent runner after a slight adjustment to pickups.

All details and paintwork on all locos - excellent.

That is the sort of thing that is needed  and if you want to put them in the relevant review sections that would be even better, that way anyone looking to purchase a particular item can look through the review for it and get a balanced view.

Hi Lawrence - I am doing that as well.

No I wouldn't pay extra. I've already paid for a working model in the purchase price.
I've looked at Spookshows N Scale Encyclopedia and even in the models marked Grade D he doesn't mention any that don't work or have bits falling off. The only recent model that rates an F is the Hobbytrain/Lemke Plasser Track Tamper. I suspect there'd be a lot more Grade Fs if he tested some British outline models.

Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on December 02, 2011, 03:55:37 PM
Other scales have also have some issues, but nowhere near the scale of British N gauge.

Sorry but that is exactly the sort of unqualified comment that I was talking about - your assessment is based on what hard data?

Over the past few months I have got my hands on and had running:

Dapol 67 x 2, 26, 156, 153 x2, 86 x4
Farish 87, 90 x2, 108, new 47, 04, new 37, 150

I haven't problems with any of them - that doesn't mean that they are all perfect.

My typical running in pattern is clean off any excess grease/lubricant, re-oil then 30 mins in each direction. Then depending on the loco chip it (if necessary fiddle with CVs via SPROG/JMRI though not often necessary with decent decoders).  More running and playing with Iphone as DCC throttle.

Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on December 02, 2011, 03:55:37 PM
I say 'why should we need to ?'

We don't but it would seem prudent if you are in Veronica's position and have much more difficulty returning things.

Not one steamer in that list... (no reflection on you red_death, steamers seem to give the most problems, certainly in my cases) Unqualified ? yes, my comments have no factual base other than the feed back from other forum members and my own n scale history which can easily prove my point.

Red_Death - This could go on and on......... If you wish to sit down and go through every fact with a fine tooth comb - be my guest ! My comments are a generalisation, but I feel I speak for the majority of 'N' modellers when I write these kind of comments. Veronica asked a simple question, I gave a simple answer based on my experiences and those of the forum.

Again, it seems someone has opened Pandora's box, taken out a can of worms, and thrown it in a hornets nest.
I agree with Lawrence - there is a section for reviews of purchases and that should really be where potential buyers look if they want to check out owners opinions and (n) gauge for themselves. Such an open thread as this will, inevitably, travel in circles with polar views dependent on our purchases/experiences.
I think that the original title of Veronica's thread has been answered fully. Further discussion would appear unnecessary.

Of course I want every purchase to run perfectly out of the box and I do not want to pay extra for it.

Having said that, is it our own fault as modelers that we get N gauge British outline models that (apparently) often don't run very well, or at least run as well as we want them to ?

How many posts on this forum and on others have explain what was done by the purchaser to achieve acceptable running characteristics ? As long as there are many purchasers who are prepared to spend their time and expertise to overcome either design or manufacturing faults then the longer we will need to tweek or modify the supplied product. Lets face it, we are just a little smug when we have converted a "dud" into an acceptable model - or to put it more simply, many of us enjoy the challenge.

When manufacturers are insulated from the need to supply products which work first time, then they will continue as now. May I suggest that those of us that do not want to work on a new purchase to get it running send it right back from whence it came claiming postage and packing as well as a refund or replacement.

The suppliers will soon get fed up and will pressurize the manufacturers. In the short term they will test before packing if only to save the cost and time of replacing the model.

Those who want to repair or modify, please do so but stop moaning about needing to do so. (By all means let us lesser beings know how you did it in case we want to have a go rather than just send it back.)

The economics of the two different camps will eventually either force the running quality we want or we will become our own miniature engineers. In any event, we will get what we deserve.

To give my answer to Veronica's question: I think there may be some smaller shops that would be willing to help you. I have recently been to Hereford Models (quite a large shop actually) a few times when I am working stone trains. They are a great shop and they make sure the locos they sell second hand are all really up to scratch. They are also cheap and have a kind of secret N gauge stash not listed on their website. It is not really secret, but they have only recently started to display their huge N gauge selection. They have a very large second hand selection which has not been displayed as they haven't had time to check them yet. They also sell lots of new N gauge which are not all displayed yet - not sure if the new ones are all tested or not, but they gladly tested locos I have bought from them both new and used. I would highly recommend them in any case.

http://www.herefordmodels.co.uk/

Try emailing them sales@herefordmodels.co.uk

Having read this thread with interest, I thought I would chip in.

Yes, the loco's should work straight out of the box and all of my purchases have, however, pre-testing would not pick up problems that manifest themselves later... Which is what I have found to be the case on 3 out of 8 of my engines.

The other thing is that I would put serious money on is that any retailer offering testing or running in would do so on a rolling road and not a track with point work... Therefore a number of faults would not present themselves, such as poor pick up contact to one or more wheelsets, grounding over pointwork (both my BachFar Class 47s needed their gear housings filing down!) and so on.

In an ideal world everything would work perfectly, but I think it is simply down to volume of sales and margins that mean sometimes stuff doesn't always work perfectly. Even my brand new BMW had a recall to have all 6 fuel injectors replaced!

Anyway, as to the OP's question, it seems like there is a gap in the market here... And at this point I put my long retired Business Development Managers hat on and ask, is there a market in the gap?!

Thank you all for your passionate input on this sensitive topic.  I am in agreement with Newportnobby... I think it has probably all been said (here and on other threads).  I think it is probably best to end the thread before it gets more heated.

Veronica, please contact me by PM if you wanted more from this thread and we can always re-open it.