Quote from: javlinfaw7 on June 06, 2015, 10:17:22 AM
Is the old garish gp tank locomotive that occasionally appears in sets not the equivalent of this

That kind of thing javlinfaw7, yes. What stands out with Hornby is their distinctive, and consistent, message of Railroad being a cheaper alternative. The stock looks to me less detailed, brighter in colours, something between a model and a toy perhaps. I'll have a look at that GF gp tank set, since I haven't seen it for a while.

Cheers

Dan

Going back to Union Mills - they don't sell through model shops so their price doesn't need to include a mark up for the retailer. Once you factor that in then they wouldn't be priced much differently to Farish.

Quote from: Paddy on June 06, 2015, 10:26:50 AM
Hi Dan,

I am still struggling to see who a "budget" range of British N gauge would be aimed at.  Without wishing to cause offence it would seem to be:

1. Kids
2. Modellers with less disposable income for their hobby
3. Modellers looking for low cost super detailing projects

Taking each of these in turn...

1. Kids.  I am not sure there really is a significant toy train market for N gauge - well not in the UK.  OO and Hornby in particular seem to have this market covered.  Also OO tends to fit in with other toys in this area such as cars, trucks and toy soldiers (assuming kids still play with such things).

2. Modellers with less disposable income for their hobby.  This one I can see a need for although from a business perspective I would want to know volumes, margin before going down that route.  I fear that modellers in this category would not actually spend anymore money but would simply get more for the buck.  Not sure how this grows the market or benefits someone like Bachmann.

3. Modellers looking for low cost super detailing projects.  Again I can see a market here although once again the question of volumes/margin comes in to play.  Also if you want low cost models to use as detailing projects/repaints etc. then there is already a ready supply on places like eBay.

So in summary I am not sure British N gauge can supprot a "budget" range or even would benefit from one.  Personally I still believe the best way to grow the market is to continue to produce the best models possible within a reasonable price structure.  If Bachmann are unable to deliver on volume/price then this will surely become an opportunity for some other enterprising manufacturer such as Dapol, Hornby, Oxford or even large retailers like Hattons, Gaugemaster etc.

Kind regards

Paddy

Hi Paddy

Yes, I'd go along with what you have said above. Very good points IMO. Definitely no offence taken by me, although I can't speak for the kids and the other two groups  Much earlier in this thread we were discussing (or perhaps I brought it up) the possibility of growing the market.

I'd agree that there isn't a huge market for kids, but is it one that could be "created"? I don't know the answer to that. Possibly yes, possibly no. However, without trying to grow the market, the manufacturers, I believe, will be selling to an ever dwindling number of hobbyists, this pushing prices up further, thus decreasing the number of hobbyists again, and so on and so on. Sure people do come into the hobby, but are they going to be in sufficient numbers to replace those who leave us as we move into the next generation?

I think Hornby understand this very well and are doing whatever they can to reach out to the next generation. Okay, it might always remain a very limited market going forward, what with so many gadgets competing for kid's attention, but they are giving it a go, since they know their survival in the model railway business depends upon it.

Agreed that OO and Hornby have the toy market covered, so N has a lot to do. That said, why should the toy market be the preserve of OO and Hornby? Agree though that the size is more compatible with cars etc. and the larger sized trains are more sturdy.

I just think we're accepting the status quo and coming up with very good points as to why the status quo is the way it is, but not really being bold in our thinking about what is possible. Like I said before, it might not be feasible (without being privy to info. I just don't know), but if I owned a business where I had to put up costs every year by an unsustainable percentage, I'd either be looking at ways of reaching out to new markets, or exiting the business.

I really don't know the definitive answer Paddy, I just think it's a good one to explore. I think we've done a good job here in doing that, and to be honest, I've taken the "opposing side" of the debate so that we could elicit a lot of these points.

I'll still keep a foot in the "hoping for a budget range" camp, but respectfully note, and in some cases concur, with a what has been said on the other side of the fence.

Cheers

Dan

Quote from: Ian Morton on June 06, 2015, 10:41:04 AM
Going back to Union Mills - they don't sell through model shops so their price doesn't need to include a mark up for the retailer. Once you factor that in then they wouldn't be priced much differently to Farish.

Where can you buy UM Ian? Someone mentioned earlier they don't have an online presence either.

To contact UM you phone for a price/stock list. sometimes appears
on the forum. A point about UM I think there is no VAT because of
their level of sales. VAT accounts for a large chunk when you pay
about £100-£120 for a loco.

Quote from: DesertHound on June 06, 2015, 10:51:57 AM
Where can you buy UM Ian? Someone mentioned earlier they don't have an online presence either.

Direct from the manufacturer - a 'one man in a shed' style enterprise.

More info here: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=156.0

Union Mills always put an advert on the N Gauge Journal and often in the Railway Modeller (but not every edition). This tends to summarise his available stock at that point.

He may be a one man band but I think the operation is a little more sophisticated than a bloke in a shed, he has been in the model railway industry for many years, involved with Cooper Craft and also worked for Peco for a time I believe. Although on e-mail, the best thing to do is give him a call, he is very helpful.

He does limit production to small batches and keeps below the VAT threshold, were he to sell through retailers prices would not be anything like as keen (Looking at Journal 3/15 a J11 0-6-0 tender loco will cost you £69 plus postage).

These locos do in many ways fit the "budget" range idea. They are simple with few (if any) separate fittings, no see through spokes, brake gear or underframe detail and not DCC ready. Mechanisms are simple and reliable but do not expect the kind of slow running as you will get with the latest Farish offerings, especially coreless motor variants and pickup footprint is limited to loco one rail, tender the other. They will however pull the side off a proverbial house and far more likely to survive being dropped or roughly handled.

For me personally the more recent BachFarish offer has left them well and truly behind but this comes back to what people want which is where this thread started!

Roy

Quote from: Roy L S on June 06, 2015, 11:44:34 AM
These (UM) locos do in many ways fit the "budget" range idea.

The big difference of UM locos is that they are a one individual organisation (hence they can't really be superdetail) and crucially, they never duplicate prototypes already for sale on the market - they are always types that aren't available and in some cases are types that are probably niche enough to never be likely to appear to the bigger manufacturers.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 05, 2015, 01:48:26 PM

Quote from: mark100 on June 05, 2015, 01:00:26 PM

Quote from: Dr Al on June 05, 2015, 12:58:18 PM

Quote from: mark100 on June 05, 2015, 12:55:43 PM
Lima types both in N and OO gauge as an economy range. 1 motor bogie and a feed coming from the trailing bogie to the motor bogie.

Please no! Those were truly dire - we do not need a return to that, it would be terrible for N!!

Cheers,
Alan

Maybe for some, but possibly not for those who have limited budgets and would be just happy with a N Gauge loco that just ran forwards and backwards.

I think the crux of Mark's point here is less on the actual mechanism (maybe I'm wrong Mark, so feel free to say so), and more on getting something to market that's simple and cheap - hence making the models more affordable to those who can't / won't pay the going rate for the super detailed stuff. And even if it's not the crux of Mark's point, to my mind it's the crux of the debate.

I see your point Al about Bachmann not wishing to "go backwards". That said, if you own a stable of brands, there's no reason you can't introduce a "lower budget" brand which doesn't in any way tarnish the superior brands in your stable. New entrants to the hobby wouldn't know, or associate, Graham Farish with a lower budget brand, even if that said lower budget brand was owned by Bachmann, so long as Graham Farish didn't go down that route themselves.

I really do hear both sides of the debate on this one. It's a difficult call (maybe not to the manufacturers who have studied it and decided against it, since they have all of the info) but I'd like to think something will come along one day at the more "entry level". On the other hand, forging forward technically is also desirable, I just hope we don't price people out of the market (or should that be, I hope we don't restrict the size of the market). Perhaps we always have done.

Dan

Bang on, this is what im trying to get at, the original Poole toolings on a basic economy chassis, not the previous China twin flywheel type but something more basic even if it was a plastic housing with white metal weights to help gain traction.
People are saying the market is not big enough, but when Bachmann bring a new BR Green/Blue diesel out in the Farish range, they sell out pretty quick and there is a demand for more and people end up paying higher prices on ebay for them, i understood they made 504 of each model but have been corrected it is 1008
Dapol BR Blue stuff sells out very quick to.
I apologise to the steam enthusiasts but I don't have a clue as to what steamers & liveries are popular
In my opinion it's not that the hobby is not big enough, its the era people are modelling that depict sales, it seems some eras are more popular than others.
Mark.

I really can see an argument both ways but are we really saying £100 for a super detailed DCC ready loco is not a fair price ?.
For me the deatiling level is now excellent and any further improvements need to be concentrated in reliable out of the box running requiring no "fettling" and I would happily contnue to pay £100 if the locos reliability both from electrics and mechanics were improved. For some I understand the fun of repairing the less complex older style locos but for me it would be a backward step. I am sure we have some petrol heads on the forum who love playing about with car engines etc.. but I would rather the reliability of a newer car even though they are now very complex and almost impossible for a fettler to repair if anything goes wrong....but it should not go wrong at £100 a throw!

Quote from: mark100 on June 06, 2015, 12:06:52 PM
Dapol BR Blue stuff sells out very quick to.

That's a generalisation - some didn't - e.g. the unnumbered blue 73s. The market is small in in some cases like this fickle, that even experienced manufacturers don't always get it right.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: sparky on June 06, 2015, 12:21:36 PM
I really can see an argument both ways but are we really saying £100 for a super detailed DCC ready loco is not a fair price ?.
For me the deatiling level is now excellent and any further improvements need to be concentrated in reliable out of the box running requiring no "fettling" and I would happily contnue to pay £100 if the locos reliability both from electrics and mechanics were improved. For some I understand the fun of repairing the less complex older style locos but for me it would be a backward step. I am sure we have some petrol heads on the forum who love playing about with car engines etc.. but I would rather the reliability of a newer car even though they are now very complex and almost impossible for a fettler to repair if anything goes wrong....but it should not go wrong at £100 a throw!

Hi Sparky

Isn't it something like GBP140-150 now for a Graham Farish loco? I don't know exactly since I'm a Poole fanatic.

I'm not saying GBP100 is too much for those who want these super models. It's more a case of having something for those who want something at the entry level, new to the hobby, and then trade up over time.

Don't forget, it's not just locos. Wagons and coaches included you'll be looking at 300 quid for a train. Ok, starter sets are a good idea with a three coach rake I guess, as beginners don't necessarily need 8-10 coaches.

I agree with you, for those serious models era / collectors who have the money to spend, 100-150 is beer money. For those considering the hobby, it's often not.

Dan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 06, 2015, 12:04:51 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on June 06, 2015, 11:44:34 AM
These (UM) locos do in many ways fit the "budget" range idea.

The big difference of UM locos is that they are a one individual organisation (hence they can't really be superdetail) and crucially, they never duplicate prototypes already for sale on the market - they are always types that aren't available and in some cases are types that are probably niche enough to never be likely to appear to the bigger manufacturers.

Cheers,
Alan

J39 aside true (and it took Farish long enough to cotton on to that one!).

It was more the general idea of what a "budget" model might be that I was thinking of and my perception is that as far as steam is concerned we are really talking about something akin Mr Heard's products.

Regards

Roy

You guys have gotten me interested in UM now! Wouldn't mind getting one if only to poke around inside to see how it's been made.

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 06, 2015, 01:21:34 PM
Isn't it something like GBP140-150 now for a Graham Farish loco? I don't know exactly since I'm a Poole fanatic.

The latest diesels are round about the hundred quid mark. Some of the steam locos (e.g. the Duchesses) are a bit more at round about the 120-130 mark.