This is a most fascinating topic - thank you Mark for starting this thread.

There have been some great points made on both sides of the fence and regardless of my own thoughts, I can see that there are arguments for and against the release of cheaper models.

With reference to certain locos in certain liveries selling out quickly, my opinion is that this is intended by the manufacturers. A quick review of the basic supply/demand curve illustrates that lower supply (supply curve shifting left) leads to a higher price. Many buyers I would think are collectors, and what better way to make something more collectable than to restrict the number available. It has been said on here already by a poster that they'll grab what they can get as they are not sure when it will be available again, if ever.

Here's an example ...

Let us assume the 4000 members on this forum are the total UK N gauge market (I know they are not, but let's just assume for now). Each member has a different propensity (willingness) to pay for a loco, but let's keep it simple for this example and break the "willingness to pay" down into four groups, with 1000 members being in each group;

Group A; willing to pay GBP150
Group B; willing to pay GBP100
Group C; willing to pay GBP75
Group D; willing to pay GBP50

Now, as a manufacturer faced with this, I have various strategies when it comes to allocation of production. I could produce 4000 BR Blue class 47's, bringing them to market at GBP150. Once I had sold 1000, I could knock the price down a little to capture group B, then C, and then D (this is what you see in real life through discounting). The average price paid would be GBP87.50 (half way between groups B & C).

Now, a far more cunning strategy would be to produce four different liveried class 47's, with the production run being 1000 for each. That way I could sell them all to group A for GBP150, hence bumping up my average sale price from GBP87.50 to GBP150. Voila! Forget about the rest of the market, I've just doubled my average selling price.

Now, I know this example is extreme (and not necessarily taken to this level), but it's purely an illustration of why I think production runs are limited.

Group D is left bottom feeding, fishing around on ebay and buying at shows and whenever there's a sale on. Group C has most probably been curtailed in their buying activity and is also turning more to ebay. Group B is bemoaning the ever increasing cost of models, whilst Group A will always have the money to buy the models, even at GBP300 per loco!

Just my thoughts guys. A great discussion, one of the best I've read on here for a while.

Lastly, could there be a market for a budget line for groups C & D? Possibly. I doubt Farish will supply it yet, but the thought, no, the mere mention by someone else that Bachmann should dust off the old Poole designs fills me with joy - If only for spares!

I enjoy fettling and fiddling with my locos. I'm not really into hyper detail, but then that's just me and I recognise others are. If Farish don't come out with a cheaper alternative, then I suspect someone else will, since the first hand market is becoming unaffordable to many.

Cheers

Dan

Quote from: PLD on June 03, 2015, 10:45:21 PM
Indeed they did - a batch of Class 73s and a small run of Class 67 however they were dismal sellers... even now you can find them new and they regularly turn up second hand either badly numbered or unnumbered, but always missing the unused transfers...

Are you sure about 67s? As something of a 67 anorak, I don't recall ever having seen any.

Quote from: DesertHound on June 04, 2015, 11:00:50 PM
This is a most fascinating topic - thank you Mark for starting this thread.

There have been some great points made on both sides of the fence and regardless of my own thoughts, I can see that there are arguments for and against the release of cheaper models.

With reference to certain locos in certain liveries selling out quickly, my opinion is that this is intended by the manufacturers. A quick review of the basic supply/demand curve illustrates that lower supply (supply curve shifting left) leads to a higher price. Many buyers I would think are collectors, and what better way to make something more collectable than to restrict the number available. It has been said on here already by a poster that they'll grab what they can get as they are not sure when it will be available again, if ever.

Here's an example ...

Let us assume the 4000 members on this forum are the total UK N gauge market (I know they are not, but let's just assume for now). Each member has a different propensity (willingness) to pay for a loco, but let's keep it simple for this example and break the "willingness to pay" down into four groups, with 1000 members being in each group;

Group A; willing to pay GBP150
Group B; willing to pay GBP100
Group C; willing to pay GBP75
Group D; willing to pay GBP50

Now, as a manufacturer faced with this, I have various strategies when it comes to allocation of production. I could produce 4000 BR Blue class 47's, bringing them to market at GBP150. Once I had sold 1000, I could knock the price down a little to capture group B, then C, and then D (this is what you see in real life through discounting). The average price paid would be GBP87.50 (half way between groups B & C).

Now, a far more cunning strategy would be to produce four different liveried class 47's, with the production run being 1000 for each. That way I could sell them all to group A for GBP150, hence bumping up my average sale price from GBP87.50 to GBP150. Voila! Forget about the rest of the market, I've just doubled my average selling price.

Now, I know this example is extreme (and not necessarily taken to this level), but it's purely an illustration of why I think production runs are limited.

Group D is left bottom feeding, fishing around on ebay and buying at shows and whenever there's a sale on. Group C has most probably been curtailed in their buying activity and is also turning more to ebay. Group B is bemoaning the ever increasing cost of models, whilst Group A will always have the money to buy the models, even at GBP300 per loco!

Just my thoughts guys. A great discussion, one of the best I've read on here for a while.

Lastly, could there be a market for a budget line for groups C & D? Possibly. I doubt Farish will supply it yet, but the thought, no, the mere mention by someone else that Bachmann should dust off the old Poole designs fills me with joy - If only for spares!

I enjoy fettling and fiddling with my locos. I'm not really into hyper detail, but then that's just me and I recognise others are. If Farish don't come out with a cheaper alternative, then I suspect someone else will, since the first hand market is becoming unaffordable to many.

Cheers

Dan

No worries Dan, it seems a shame for Bachmann to just shelf the old Poole toolings, Dapol are using the old Airfix and Kitmaster toolings for plastic injection moulding and they are older than me. So there should be life in those old Poole plastic injection toolings.
My son and myself are happy to still use the Poole designed Class 20, 25/3, 31, 40, (China produced 44, 45, 46,) 50, 55 body shells, Bernard at TPM is hopefully restarting later this year according to my nephew, so detailing parts can be purchased if required. I think some Steam enthusiasts would still buy the older models at a lower price.
It just seems a shame to just say goodbye to something that people will still use.

Cheers Mark

I can't really imagine the old Poole models being resurrected, partly because they wouldn't be much cheaper than the re-tooled models anyway. The recent price increases of the latter are in large part due to labour costs in China.

An old Poole 47 cost me £42.75 in 1993. Compared to general inflation levels it doesn't make the new Farish offerings seem that expensive really.

For steam enthusiasts Union Mills already produce a range of fairly basic, but reasonably accurate models that seem fairly well liked by modeller.

Regards,
Paul

Quote from: mark100 on June 04, 2015, 11:52:37 PM
It just seems a shame to just say goodbye to something that people will still use.

But look at it from the manufacturers' point of view. Why would they want to reduce the sales of the new models which they have recently spent a lot on developing? Because that's the reality of what would happen if two ranges were available in a fairly small market (which N gauge is)

There are plenty of old models available second-hand for anyone who wants them - and its particularly noticeable that when a new tooling comes out a glut of the old ones will appear on ebay and can often be picked up quite cheap.

Hello all,

Please let's not go back to the bad old days.

The first N gauge model I bought, in the mid 90s, was a Kato Eurostar.  The second a CJM kit for a Class 73.  The third was a Farish 33, and I remember the crushing disappointment I felt at how poor it was in comparison.

Nowhere in the world, to my knowledge, are models as basic as the old Farish stuff still being produced.

In recent years Farish and Dapol have made huge leaps in producing decent, high fidelity models.

Finally we are getting models to match standards routinely expected in Europe and the US.  OK, they might be a few quid more expensive than theirs, because our market is smaller but at least we can hold our heads up!

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: mark100 on June 04, 2015, 11:52:37 PM
it seems a shame for Bachmann to just shelf the old Poole toolings

Bear in mind another factor is that much of this tooling is 30+ years old (e.g the class 47 first arrived in 1981, so is close to 35 years old) and may be near the end of its useful life anyway - some models were never re-done by Bachmann in Poole form as the tooling on them was already reportedly shot (e.g. the LMS 4P and the original 101 DMU).

Regardless of the tooling condition, it's clearly evident Bachmann want to move away from these dated models now anyway - unsurprisingly - would many businesses want to trumpet that they are releasing a 35 year old design; when instead they can blow us all away with the standard of models they are now tooling (which aren't actually that much more complex)? There are virtually none of the original Poole derived models now in their range, even ones that haven't been retooled seem to have stopped being rerun. I think this is the correct decision. Poole Farish designs *were* the N gauge market for around 20 years - without them British N would have had virtually nothing, so they deserve their rightful respect, but equally, it's time for them to enter a respected retirement in terms of future production IMHO.

Also, Bachmann don't have the market to themselves - there is Dapol who've hugely driven up standards by means of competition, and DJM I think will continue this trend. Equally, Dapol tell a useful lesson that duplicate models that aren't up to the same standard as the best in the market just don't sell as well - they were trying to get shot of B1s for as cheap as £40 for years after they were produced, as the Farish version is better.

Bachmann know they want their company image to go I suspect, and know their market (both size and what sells) better than we all sometimes give them credit for, and I think (sadly for some) that a Rail-road style range is just never going to be a starter any time near future.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Ben A on June 05, 2015, 02:00:14 AM
The third was a Farish 33, and I remember the crushing disappointment I felt at how poor it was in comparison.

It no doubt got split gears at some point too....?!

Cheers,
Alan

Have to pick up on one point Ben said,

Compared to the US and Europe we are playing catch up in reality when it comes to detailing, now while we all moan about price (even the most flush with cash do) but long term it may play in favour of the British N gauge scene.
There is a large following of US and European modeling in the UK and I have heard some people say "I may go British outline now the models are getting better" so it they are saying that Farish and Dapol may get larger markets from more overseas sales.
While I doubt it will bring prices down (we could only wish) if there are more people outside the UK buying British outline it may slow the rate of price increases overall, even as new features and upgrades come into play.

While not a low priced version if it holds prices down then would there be a need for a cheaper one?

We really have a bit of a dilemma here my layout was built in 1980 so is getting on I've obviously changed some worn out points but the basic track is the same and there is a lot of it the layout is 20ftx8ft ,So my point is while it's nice to have smoother running and more detailed models some of the newer Locos especially steam Locos derail randomly I think it's because of the new finer profile wheels .I recently baught an Ixion Manor it ran absolutely perfect on a layout at the show pulling 12 coaches no bother and was a bargain at £50 I was very pleased but on my layout with old Peco Streamline code 80 track the only way it will run without trouble is backwards .I think it's too light .I can't possibly afford to replace the track but would like to run some new models when I get the money to buy the odd new loco . So maybe the manufacturers are getting too fine scale with the wheels no we don't want Pizza cutter wheels back but a compromise would be nice for us older modelers I know this is going to be a controversial subject but perhaps you can see my point of view .
Bob

If you're experiencing derailments with multiple modern models then it's most likely the track to blame, in particular bumps and kinks. Modern models should run absolutely fine on older code 80 track - there is absolutely no reason to replace it all (modern Bachmann and Dapol sets come with exactly this track). It may just need some fine going over to eliminate any such issues.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 05, 2015, 02:12:29 AM

Quote from: Ben A on June 05, 2015, 02:00:14 AM
The third was a Farish 33, and I remember the crushing disappointment I felt at how poor it was in comparison.

It no doubt got split gears at some point too....?!

Cheers,
Alan

In a feeble attempt to balance that - I bought one new donkeys years ago for £50 and it hasn't split a gear yet (frantically touches wooden table)

Dr Al  I aggree with you it is caused by my old track but my point is the older Locos with more weight run perfectly with absolutely no derailments at all .
I have a new back to back gauge for finer profile wheels so it's not that ,
both the Ixion Manor and Dapol 9F with the modified front bogie  are the two problem Locos .
The 9F runs better with the metal coupling in the front it now only derails sometimes but it only made a slight difference on the Manor ,but it does look good running backwards which they did sometimes on the real railways anyway so I'm not too bothered .
I really think it's the light weight of the Locos as well as my very old track .
Bob

Can I just add a slightly different angle? That of introducing the next generation.

A couple of years ago I built a OO layout for my Grandson (Then 4). At the Folkestone show I purchased a BRAND NEW 0-4-0 loco for £5.00! Yes, that's not a typo, £5.00.

I was thinking Nellie or Polly standard but it has been a faultless runner and a pleasure to operate. Had I known how good it was going to be I would have bought more.

No doubt many of those locos have found their way onto industrial or narrow gauge layouts (O-16.5) If you now apply that to say the Dapol 0-4-2 and 2-6-2 along with the Farish 0-6-0 and their 2-6-2 I think there could be a new market for tougher locos that can take the knocks the younger generation will give them. It could also open up the kit bashing market as people may be more willing to have a go if the chassis was cheaper.

Just my thoughts.

On the subject of gears why o why can't we go back to the White nylon type gears Farish used for a while ,they were  much better they were quiter and smoother but I'm told were too expensive to make .I'd rather pay a few quid more than put up with split gears . If I can afford it I buy second hand Locos no matter what they look like as long as they are cheap just to get the gears maybe someone out there could produce some Already fitted to the original wheel sets .
Bob