Apologies in advance for dampening the kindling wood but where would the manufacturing capacity for a second range come from?

If a manufacturer has only one factory and they cannot already delivery on promises made on their current range of products they'd have to rob Peter to pay Paul.  So production could be something like:

Years 1 and 2 - model 1 as premium and model 2 as budget
Years 3 and 4 - model 1 as budget and model 2 as premium
Years 5 and 6 - as per Years 1 and 2

So for example if you didn't get hold of a budget 47 in years 1 and 2 you'd have to wait at least three to four years for the next opportunity to buy one.

Additional manufacturing capacity could be gained by producing smaller batches of models so instead of say 5,000 DCC ready 47s split that number 50 / 50 between premium and budget ranges.  Not that this would help much as modellers complain enough already about getting hold of models from just one range.

Problems, problems.

Nigel

I keep hoping that Unions Mills, or anyone, will introduce railroad style n gauge diesels as I am getting to the point that paying for fine details (which sometimes breaks!) at the ever increasing prices for something I view from four feet going round the layout is not viable.  The same applies for the wagons, some cost nearly £30 now with detail I will look at only on the day I get it out the box.  Once it is on the layout I will never look at the fine detail again.

The reason that models are increasingly more detailed (and hence more expensive) is because this is what many people have been bemoaning for years, and as already discussed the market isn't there for two separate ranges. The manufacturers get criticised for lack of detail, so they put more effort in which raises the cost, then people complain about the cost! Put yourself in their shoes - they can't win really


Paul

I agree with Simong what is the point of highly detailed under frames such as sand pipes and bits that fall off when the roof detail is crap and the gears split even in the box on the shelf . I would prefer a loco that ran really well for a long time than one that looks absolutely perfect as long as you don't use it.
On the subject of gears as NPN said we don't want to bring back brass gears but why can't they use the White nylon gears that Farish used once I would rather pay the extra for those knowing they would give smooth and quieter running than sand pipes and under frame detail that you can't see when your running your Locos which I thought was the idea of a model railway.
Bob

There are many that share those sentiments Bob, but just as many if not more that want the detail. One example is the ongoing discussion in the BachFar Diesel section about a missing pipe on one of the Class 47 variants

Personally I wouldn't notice the difference, but it's a case of "each to their own"


Paul

Modellers are we ever really happy?   

I must admit I's guilty of sitting on the fence on this one, as a Steam fan I am amazed even now at my Farish Jubilee models and the detail they have, but then I ask myself sometimes is it worth is when people who view my layout at home or exhibition refer to them as the "red ones".

Then again if I have to use rtr stock, this usually means I have to re-paint everything from those terrible BR liveries, and its at time like these when removing added on detail by the chaps at Farish/Dapol I wish I had a less detailed model to start with. ?

Like Paul I run steam (only) I think possibly what we need is something half way between the plain old Poole models and the current super detailed offerings.

Let's have the obviously visible items above footplate level like vac pipes & lamp irons, I always add those to Union Mills and old Poole locos, but below the footplate things like brake rodding is less noticeable and often fragile so leave it out.

Maybe a case for two levels of detail, all the bells and whistles for the collectors display cases, and a simpler version for the rest of us, possibly achieved by the basic model at a realistic price and a separate optional (pricey) enhancement kit (bag of bits) for the fuss pots.

I owned a model shop for 4 years not long ago and the average modeller would also mention the increasing prices, and many who were buying for a family layout would rather a less detialed model at a lower price.  This forum represents more of enthusiast market and we should not forget the family's who for many model shops represent over 50% of their trade. These increasing prices were putting people of N gauge as they could get Hornby railroad stuff so much cheaper.  It was hard enough to sell a brand they had not heard of without the price issue.  For the future of N Gauge we need models that are priced to attract the next generation who will have less ability to pay the high prices.

For me I have scaled back what I am going to buy as £100-120 for a loco, or £30 for one wagon when windows need replacing and kids want a holiday it is no longer justifiable to continue to build a large collection.

Quote from: simong on June 04, 2015, 04:47:56 PM
I owned a model shop for 4 years not long ago and the average modeller would also mention the increasing prices, and many who were buying for a family layout would rather a less detialed model at a lower price.  This forum represents more of enthusiast market and we should not forget the family's who for many model shops represent over 50% of their trade. These increasing prices were putting people of N gauge as they could get Hornby railroad stuff so much cheaper.  It was hard enough to sell a brand they had not heard of without the price issue.  For the future of N Gauge we need models that are priced to attract the next generation who will have less ability to pay the high prices.

For me I have scaled back what I am going to buy as £100-120 for a loco, or £30 for one wagon when windows need replacing and kids want a holiday it is no longer justifiable to continue to build a large collection.

Thank You for those comments, I'm glad to have a former retailer back me up to. 
There are to many people associating N Gauge for older people and that kids should have Hornby OO, this is no longer the case, People want what they can fit into a home at a realistic price and build up a large collection.

Quote from: Buzzard on June 04, 2015, 07:52:38 AM
Additional manufacturing capacity could be gained by producing smaller batches of models so instead of say 5,000 DCC ready 47s split that number 50 / 50 between premium and budget ranges.  Not that this would help much as modellers complain enough already about getting hold of models from just one range.

Nigel

Unfortunately the economics of that idea simply don't work for the way Kader/Bachmann operate...

You are effectively developing two models in parallel. There should be some shared cost so it shouldn't double the development costs but will probably add 40-50% AND you are doubling the set-up cost for each production batch. overall the impact on retail price would be that the 'Budget' model would very close to the current prices and the 'Premium' model would be at least 25-30% above current prices.

So, half the modellers pay almost as much as they do now for a poorer model while the other half pay more for the model they have now... 

Quote from: PLD on June 04, 2015, 05:59:17 PM
So, half the modellers pay almost as much as they do now for a poorer model while the other half pay more for the model they have now... 

This may indeed be the case. Think about what a "railroad" range model would be. Something like the old Farish Class 25 or for that matter the current 'Peak'. Basic tooling, no DCC or lights, and a workmanlike rather than elegant mechanism ill-suited to silent running or low-speed crawling.

Hattons and others have had loads of those models on sale for around the £50 mark, which would seem to be a sensible starting point for a low-end range. Have they encouraged new modellers? Hard to say. But when it comes to new N-gauge modellers asking about them on forums, they usually receive lots of negative comments about these 'obsolete' or 'basic' models.

What happens if Farish were to carry on manufacturing these potential "railroad" models? Would that limit the quantity of new models? Would a "railroad" range add to the N-gauge market or eat away at it? If the latter, that could mean less profit all around.

No-one has mentioned them yet, but does Union Mills count as a "railroad" range? Their models are (relatively) cheap, solid, reliable, but basic. Any number of colourful and charismatic models though, plenty to attract casual hobbyists, and you could argue their sturdy models would be ideal for younger modellers. But my guess is the younger modellers start off with the trains they know, whether diesel or electric, rather than steam.

Cheers, NeMo

I personally like the more detailed models and am prepared to pay for them even if I can't buy as many as I would like to.

What I don't like is that with all the detail and the way they are designed it's so difficult to take them apart for servicing.

I know we shouldn't have to service locos but when you live thousands of miles away it is sometimes a necessity.

Great point Nemo regards the older garish models still being available, the old garish Class 31 was not bad at all and buying this at £50-60 would work for me.

Quote from: NeMo on June 04, 2015, 06:09:08 PM
Something like the old Farish Class 25 or for that matter the current 'Peak'. Basic tooling, no DCC or lights, and a workmanlike rather than elegant mechanism ill-suited to silent running or low-speed crawling.

Objection, m'lud!
I have 3 of the old Farish 25s and they all run at perfectly slow speeds. OK - they are not as accurate as the latest release but they also weren't cheap at the time of purchase, being comparable to all the other models in the range. Sorry, but I'll defend these old 25s against all comers

Quote from: newportnobby on June 04, 2015, 10:33:20 PM

Quote from: NeMo on June 04, 2015, 06:09:08 PM
Something like the old Farish Class 25 or for that matter the current 'Peak'. Basic tooling, no DCC or lights, and a workmanlike rather than elegant mechanism ill-suited to silent running or low-speed crawling.

Objection, m'lud!
I have 3 of the old Farish 25s and they all run at perfectly slow speeds. OK - they are not as accurate as the latest release but they also weren't cheap at the time of purchase, being comparable to all the other models in the range. Sorry, but I'll defend these old 25s against all comers

The Poole produced Class 25/3 and Class 31 bodyshells are what my son and I are using, the class 25/3 is being fitted with a Minitrix 2959 chassis and the 31s PA1 chassis units by Life Like and Kato, the bodyshells will be modified with recessed cab doors and handrails on the Class 25 and handrails added to the 31s. But if these shells were manufactured with a budget type chassis then i would still buy them. Even the old type class 20 shells can be tidied up with some filing here and there.